A problem with the LRB

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:42 pm

Skummy wrote:Kharge - funny how similar solutions spring up all over the place. Our league has a minor league structure as well, where each coach can use 2 secondary teams and play non scheduled games. It's a very good solution to big differences in team rating.

And here we have it. Very many leagues have had to find alternate ways to compensate for the lack of options for fresh teams to catch up with veteran ones.

But what about those who either don't want to manage several teams, or don't have the time. The game itself should solve this problem.

MickeX · Post by **MickeX** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 3:57 pm

Our league had this problem just now - we simply decided that new teams get 1 250 000 GP to start with.

I would have preferred some solutions in the same direction as roysorlies suggestions. Perhaps a combo of extra MVP, FF-roll bonus and a second apo.

The extra MVP could be rolled for, say 1+ for >70 SPP difference, 2+ for >60 SPP difference, and so on. The second apo could work similarily, not getting as efficient as 2+ unless the TRR-difference is very high.

On the other hand, that would be a lot of rules. Scrap that apo idea, keep bonus MVP & FF, and fix that handicap table instead...

Micke

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:16 pm

The whole point is to keep veteran teams down...not accelerate rookie teams up to veteran status.
Extra Cash and MVPs don't help you in the game one iota.

Seriously, it's pretty simple to me....if Accrington Stanley play Manchester United then they will get crushed. Now is the problem the rules of football or is the problem putting Accrington Stanley and Man U in the same league?

I think it's an impossible dilemma. How can we put Bogside Athletic into the Champions League and allow them to compete? Hey...bright idea...what about allowing only One Skill Per Action?

What about if we were to introduce appearance fees so that Roy Keane and Van Nistelroy can't play?

Or how about some rules to help turn Bogside into Man U?

Or how about people just use some common sense in the first place..it ain't rocket science...
Dunno if I'm just in a bad mood or what, but really......FFS!
Apologies etc..no offence intended....but....
*sigh*

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:27 pm

OMG its not only newbies DW treats like sh*t, its everyone

Post by **Old Man Draco** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:41 pm

ianwilliams wrote: OMG its not only newbies DW treats like sh*t, its everyone

NOW YOU FOUND THAT OUT!!

Well at least DW apollogized, that's more than some of us do. apol. accepted DW.

Maybe we are comparing mice with elephants here. you should look at the rules for your league, discuss them and apply if you want them changed, but for that league only. If minds ar different then vote.

It goes way to far to change the LRB and give several options how to run a league. You should figure that out yourselves when starting one.

You could add a sentence in the LRB though explaining that all leagues ought to be played according to LRB rules, but if agreed upon by all members the rules can be altered to fit the situation.

Never forget, it's the game that's important.

(Did I mention I like the cards.)

BlanchPrez · Post by **BlanchPrez** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:45 pm

roysorlie wrote:But what about those who either don't want to manage several teams, or don't have the time. The game itself should solve this problem.

I've read through this entire thread, and I have to say, I don't think I agree with that. This is a problem that strikes alot of leagues, yes, but each of those leagues is different, and their solution to the problem will be different, depending on how that league runs itself. Forcing the issue with sepcific rules in the LRB, in my opinion, isn't the answer. Offering suggestions in the League section of the rulebook is something I would support, though.

Chris

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 6:12 pm

You could always allow a rookie team to play 2-3 "friendlies", where all cas count as BH. This would allow them to gain SPP's at th correct rate, rather than randomly, as with bonus MVP's.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 8:59 pm

Gumble wrote:or iirc in american football the texas houstens (is that right?) didn't do very well at all last season after joining the nfl

Nope, not right. They are the Houston Texans. But you are correct in that they didn't do well.

And niether did the revived Cleveland Browns. Which was technically an expansion team.

The NFL (and NBA) have the salary cap, though, which is suppose to tighten the gap between Expansion teams and Established teams. But it doesn't work. It is total crap.

Ironnically, in the US, Baseball, with no Salary Cap, has had Expansion teams be successful quicker than the two sports with it. Both the Arizona Diamondbacks, and the Florida Marlins, did quite well. On the flip side, one of the oldest teams, the Yankees, is always in the top running, as well.

Back on topic, I think that this particular problem should be solved within each individual league, as oppose to making broad LRB changes. Making a balanced game with multiple teams, starting from scratch, is tough enough. Trying to make the game balanced between established teams and New teams, as well. . . .

Might be asking a bit much.

Hey a commissioner has to do something. It is his Job to come up with a solution.

Asperon Thorn

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:08 pm

Asperon Thorn wrote:The NFL (and NBA) have the salary cap, though, which is suppose to tighten the gap between Expansion teams and Established teams. But it doesn't work. It is total crap.

The NFL salary cap was put in place to keep salaries down and to promote even competition. Expansion teams get supplemental draft choices and extra draft picks to try to get better more quickly.

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:24 pm

Skummy wrote:
Asperon Thorn wrote:The NFL (and NBA) have the salary cap, though, which is suppose to tighten the gap between Expansion teams and Established teams. But it doesn't work. It is total crap.
The NFL salary cap was put in place to keep salaries down and to promote even competition. Expansion teams get supplemental draft choices and extra draft picks to try to get better more quickly.

Well. . . Yes, that is one of the other excuses for the Salary Cap. But isn't that what this thread is about. Making sure there is an even playing field between teams no matter thier level. Either way the salary cap is still garbage, and does nothing to promote victory.

Asperon Thorn

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:14 pm

Nah, it promotes mediocrity.

What would help new teams more than extra money would be giving them a limited number of MVP's that they could place randomly on their roster - a supplemental draft modification.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:59 am

Ok, I'm going to assume most people understadn the problem with the system the way it is, (low TR teams have nothing to gain playing high rated teams, and high rated teams have heaps to benefit playing low rated teams)

I really don't think anybody can argue against that fact.

So what we're left with is how to solve the problem.

DW said the point was keeping veterans down, not helpign rookies up.

I have to say, I don't find a TR 150 team needs to be kept down? do you? This is the point where the teams starts working more or less.

What I'm saying is, when a new team enters an enviroment, were the other teams are tr 150-200, it won't have very much of a chance to get anywhere. Especially considering the fact most aftercomers are newbies to the game. A very good coach might manage, but that's besides the point.

What you people are suggesting, is that all the small gaming groups around the world, should then start a second and third league, to help out the new guy? Or that everyone should just make new teams? And never mind they only get together every sunday to play?

I AM NOT saying I want to help a 170 tr team get to 250. I want to help 100 TR teams reach 150-170 in a league where the other teams already are TR 250.

Only a slight boost at the beginneing, to get over that difficult part, where none of your key players have any skills yet. and ONLY in an envioroment where the other teams have at least 50+ tr. Don't you get it?

I am no more fan than you are of teams reaching 400 TR. And I for the most part agree on keeping teams down, (disagree with how it's done).

I'm just saying, that there should be some sort of mechanism that makes it worth while, for a TR 100 team bother to play against teams with 50 or more TR in their league. Because if you gain no real additional amount of money, and less SPP than you would playing a team with equal TR, and more casualties against... FFS! What is the point??

Gees.. got a little worked up there..

sorry bout that.
It is just that this seems so painstakingly obvious to me, absolutely every single BB'er i know personally, without any exceptions, AND people seems to have this stubbor, die hard knack of entepeting EVERYthing I say in the worst possible context.

urrg...

*sigh*

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:13 am

Well I agree with you

In addition our league likes teams to max out at the 350 level, not 250 level like most BBers seem to like...

Now to get there takes a long time, a lot of games and a lot of effort....

...but we have a "superleague" for teams like this...

Most seasons we have a division 1 where the 100 rated teams start and then progress to the superleague in the following season (TR 170-230 ish)

However if someone joins division 1 late it would be demoralising if we didn't use cards and the handicap MVPs. The beauty of the system is that its self regulating - once teams approach the average they get less bonus and slow down in development....

However I can see why accelerated team growth is unpalatable to some...
It depends on each league....

roysorlie> I can't recommend enough a handicap POINTS system in a league... On average player deaths etc are relatively independent of team rating (big teams don't actually massacre small ones THAT often now that M'blow, d' player etc have been toned down) but the bigger team is likely to win (as it should). If you handicap the points at least the smaller team gets more league points....

Our system:

win 50 pts
draw 25 pts
loss 10 pts
TD difference +-3 per
cas difference +-1 per

Handicap: (bigger team / smaller team)

1-1.25 -0
1.25-1.5 -5
1.5-1.75 -10
1.75-2.0 -15
2.0-2.5 -20
2.5-3.0 -25

Of course the corresponding smaller team gets + handicap...

e.g Team A beats team B 2-0 and 1-0 on casualties. Team A TR= 220, Team B TR= 133

Handicap = -10/+10 (1.65)

Team A: 50+6+1-10 = 47
Team B: 10-6-1+10= 13

Now in our league 13 points is "better than a loss". In fact a draw would be a great result for the lower team...

We used this system and my high elves (293) were beaten by wood elves (147) and I got -6 points

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:39 am

roysorlie wrote:What I'm saying is, when a new team enters an enviroment, were the other teams are tr 150-200, it won't have very much of a chance to get anywhere. Especially considering the fact most aftercomers are newbies to the game. A very good coach might manage, but that's besides the point.

If we are talking about complete newbies joining a league, then I would have thought that experienced coaches would go quite easy on them and try to encourage them. When a new coach joined our league, his first match was against my gobbo team and I tried very hard to explain what he should be trying to do and to explain what I was trying to do. There was no point just going to straight out for a victory when that would be discouraging. It was far more important to get new players in instead.

Martyn

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:41 am

a new team can work in a league with tr 150-200

they will lose a lot but then they are a worse team deal with it

they also get benefits of playing better teams who probably have a higher ff so the lower team will benefit from gaining extra winnings, while the better teams may lose a player and are quite likely to get 0 winnings from the match

this will stall their growth while the lower team catches up, it may take a while but who said they low team should instantly be able to compete

like i mentioned previously if you league needs something to help, there is nothing stopping you letting them have extra money, some free spp, or even letting them play 4 feeder games so they can get to tr 130ish before starting in the league properly

this is something thats down to each individual league and doens't need to be addressed in the rulebook

like skummy already mentioned his league has 2 divisions where new teams can come in and build themselves up, nothing stopping you doing this or introducing some other format