Ogres in Dwarf Teams

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:44 pm

Thads, can't believe you're moaning about 'fairness'. So most teams can have a Big Guy? So what? Dwarves have a natural counter with 2 Dauntless/Frenzy players and access to Guard pretty much across the board. So any Dwarf team is capable of throwing 2D Blocks at opposing Big Guys pretty much at will. Who else has that capability out of the box?
Get a grip mate!

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 4:49 pm

Thadrin wrote:I am pretty sick of EVERY team having a Big Guy as standard at some stage in its development.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:03 pm

Giving Chaos and Norse an Ogre as well as Dark Elves a Treeman seems like a bad idea. If you do this, you might as well give treemen to the High Elves as well.
Also, the tradeoffs for some teams are much worse than they are for others. Giving up a Black Orc for an Ogre is a no brainer, but trading a one of your two throwers or a Storm Vermin for a Rat Ogre? That seems a much bigger sacrifice for the Skaven Roster.
I like the idea, but don't think it's balanced - especially as I believe the reason for roster increases of blitzers on DE's and Undead were partly because they did not have access to big guys.

Perhaps the rule of thumb should be - a team can have 4 blitzer positions or a big guy and two blitzer position players?

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:17 pm

Deathwing wrote: Thads, can't believe you're moaning about 'fairness'. So most teams can have a Big Guy? So what? Dwarves have a natural counter with 2 Dauntless/Frenzy players and access to Guard pretty much across the board. So any Dwarf team is capable of throwing 2D Blocks at opposing Big Guys pretty much at will. Who else has that capability out of the box?

Who else has that sort of power?
Pretty much all the other "Bashing" teams really.
A dwarf team has two MA5 guys who need a dice roll to get even.
Orcs have Four ST4 guys and 8 players with access to Guard. Chaos has the same number of ST4 guys, with the chance of Guard accross the board. A Chaos Dwarf team has 2 ST4 guys with a pretty much guarenteed 9 squares per turn move, and a total of 8 guys with Guard access.
Noone talks about removing those Big guys do they?

That is beside the point...I don't give a damn about them removing Ogres from the Dwarf roster, beyond the fact that I'm rather fond of my Ogre mini, but if we're going to do it why single out the Dwarfs? A piece of questionable fluff? Is a Dwarf team with an Ogre REALLY that much of a worry? Rat Ogres and Wood Elf teams with Treemen scare me more.

The point I'm onto now is that Big Guys are a standard rather than an exception, and its boring. Lets do away with them as team members. It makes sense.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:27 pm

I never use a big guy in the choas dwarfs, and guard on a bull centaur is rare when you consider other skills they need, block, break tackle, tackle.

I don't think a lot of the races need them at all tbh, it seems most people take them because other teams have them. Like i said, most teams don't need them for any other reason. Some of the weaker teams take them to have some str vs the stronger sides, but then the stronger teams just take one back. Id be happy limiting them to the stunties, but I like the fact the krox and rat ogre are there. The ogre seems to be the main culprit for the situation. The only time i have played with a big guy is with my goblin team.

I do like the idea of tacking a big guy instead of a position player (the blitzer or something)

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:17 pm

Skummy wrote: Also, the tradeoffs for some teams are much worse than they are for others. Giving up a Black Orc for an Ogre is a no brainer, but trading a one of your two throwers or a Storm Vermin for a Rat Ogre? That seems a much bigger sacrifice for the Skaven Roster.

I came up with that list in about 1 minute so I'm not claiming it's perfect. I'd love you to point out possible corrections to the table. What should orcs be forced to replace instead - a blitzer? This seems like a worthy idea to me, so please comment on what the teams should give away in order to have a BG.
For some teams the team could perhaps be forced to give up two players instead of one - just to make it a big enough sacrifice to field a BG.
Maybe the high and dark elves ought to lose two players to field a treeman, for example.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:24 pm

Lets say TWo position slots period, Chaos being able to take Two big guys in return for THREE Chaos warriors.
I'd say in the case of Skaven, Wood Elves and High Elves it should be two Catcher slots. Dwarfs it should be both Slayers. Orcs probably Black Orcs.
Humans are the toughest ones...Two Blitzers for an Ogre? sounds best.
In general take positions where the limit is 0-4 as far as possible.

First glance I hated the idea, but its growing on me the more I think about it. Prefer mine, but yours is certainly another decent option.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 6:50 pm

Mestari - I didn't mean to come off as overly critical there. It's sometimes hard to judge these things in a text conversation.

I like the way Thadrin's thinking here. Most teams would have to give up two positional players to get a big guy.

Human 2 Blitzers
Skaven 2 Gutter Runners
Orc 2 Black Orcs
Wood Elf 2 Catchers
High Elf 2 Lion Warriors
CDwarf 2 Blockers
Dark Elf 2 Blitzers
Amazon 2 Blitzers
Lizardman 2 Saureses (Sauri?)
Norse 2 Blitzers
Chaos 2 Chaos Warriors

Exceptions:

Dwarf 1 Trollslayer
Goblins Free
Halfling Free

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:29 pm

Dwarfs should lose both Trollslayers. If every other race loses two position players for a Big Guy then that should include Dwarfs, especially if you
picture the scene at the training ground...
"Whas that there big thing?"
"Its an Ogre, Rodney."
*glint appears in Rodney the Slayer's eye*
"Big? Check. Primarily cave Dwelling? Check. Hard? Check. Capable of killing me? Check. Right. Bring it on sucka!"
*Slayer charges Ogre. Coach does nothing as he'll have the winner available next game...*

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:31 pm

No offense taken, Skummy. I didn't mean to reply with an annoyed tone either, but apparently it seemed so. I just wanted to prompt you for suggestions.

Skummy wrote: Human 2 Blitzers
Skaven 2 Gutter Runners
Orc 2 Black Orcs
Wood Elf 2 Catchers
High Elf 2 Lion Warriors
CDwarf 2 Blockers
Dark Elf 2 Blitzers
Amazon 2 Blitzers
Lizardman 2 Saureses (Sauri?)
Norse 2 Blitzers
Chaos 2 Chaos Warriors

Exceptions:

Dwarf 1 Trollslayer
Goblins Free
Halfling Free

I could live with this list. The setback from having a BG are certainly quite high and many people would rather have the proper players instead of BG's.

But the dwarves are still a problem to me. They need some sort of compensation, just like the high and dark elves, who in this suggestion get their 3rd ed teams plus a BG. My suggestion for dwarves would be to either give them blockers, two more blitzers or two more slayers, and make the BG cost two blitzers/slayers.

And fluffwise, chaos could use the possibility to get 2 BG's. Maybe they'd have to pay 1 CW for the first and 2 more to get a second BG.

Yes, Sauri is the plural of Saurus. Latin words that end to "us" get an "i" instead in the plural form, usually.

Anduin · Post by **Anduin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:32 pm

I'd love a big guy for the amazons to become official, but I thought the Unicorn was the proposed choice. I think I'd rather have the Krox...

Anduin

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:35 pm

Thadrin wrote:Dwarfs should lose both Trollslayers.

But dwarves get a rotten deal compared to dark and high elves. They've been already given something for not having a BG and the other teams have already a plenty of position players.

Besides, I want compensation for the way that P.Jackson treated Gimli in his latest movie

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:36 pm

Dwarfs have Blockers. They're called Longbeards. I consider Slayers to be a variant Blitzer too.

Really, I'm against fiddling with the Dwarf roster. I think its fine as is.
Still prefer my Freebooting idea.

Chaos should be able to get two-for three CWs too. It fits the idea of the race, but having two for two CWs each would mean no Chaos Champion leading the team. rather attatched to the idea of Warbands y'see.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 7:43 pm

Anduin wrote:I'd love a big guy for the amazons to become official, but I thought the Unicorn was the proposed choice. I think I'd rather have the Krox...

Unicorns?????
: puke :

mestari wrote: dwarves get a rotten deal compared to dark and high elves. They've been already given something for not having a BG and the other teams have already a plenty of position players.

Prepare for a shock...I think Dwarfs are fine as they are (though I think slightly more Secret weapons than other races, when we get those rules, would be characterful.)

I think ALL the rosters are fine without the big guys (exception: all the rosters from BBMag 3 and onwards). Its the BGs that are the problem. There isn't one that fits DE and HE (not that I think either would stoop to using a big guy...), or for that matter Amazons.

This is the point I've been trying to make all along, Dwarfs need an ogre to go against the Big Guys all the other teams get. I'd rather go back to almost exclusively big guy free teams insetad of the silly "everyone has to have one" situation we have now. The original substitution idea was merely to allow Chaos the mix they should have while not disrupting balance. I don't see not getting to develop Big Guys outside of their "natural" teams as a problem.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Dec 19, 2002 8:15 pm

I limited the Dwarves becasue I couldn't see them operating too well without the Blitzers or the Trollslayers. At the same time, I'm very much against changing their roster to allow 4 blitzers, as this would lead to a very different Dwarf team on the pitch. I also think that this setup also hurts the Lizardmen a fair bit. It's worth noting that these are the two rosters with only 6 positional players.

I don't really have a solution for it. BTW, with these rules, Undead would probably get a big guy as well. Perhaps they could trade in a Mummy and a Wight?

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Ogres in Dwarf Teams

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