A Word on Fouling...

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:06 am

i don't have a problem combining fouling and secret weapons but i still don't see a point with giving them spp for it

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:13 am

I would love a way for a an agility 1 catcher a way to make spp's. I just think the system needs to be tweaked farther to not allow a st 4 chaos warrior with dirty player to become an uber spp winner.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:17 am

its called piling on and razor claws

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:19 am

Which has only a 50% connection to fouling, since po is block only.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:38 am

What's the 50% connection? Neither can be used on fouling, and that's a good thing!

Some of you don't realize how powerful fouling is under the current rules. It's still extremely potent with dirty player. Anymore and it would be broken.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:56 am

In other words if dp is changed to help with the igemoy/ref roll, then most of the problems with fouling will be fixed in your opinion?

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:59 am

Side point. Seems interesting to me that people are testing new teams and kicking all over the place but i havent heard of anyone trying to support their views by playtesting spp/foul variants.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:12 am

The players who don't want fouling spp aren't doing any testing cause they don't see anything wrong with the current system.

I've just been chatting to a long time fumbbl coach who has a rep of being a fouling monster under the current rules. He agrees they are balenced and he doesn't want to see spp for fouls. Now when a player who would benefit greatly from it doesn't think it is worth changing doesn't that say something?

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:43 am

Given the current opinion on the board against bringing back SPPs for fouling, I'd say the "yes" side has the burden of proof. Bring back SPPs for fouling in your league and build teams to try and break it. If you can prove to me that you can't break it then that'd be data I'd accept as valid.

First, I think that's not a good argument, only my opinion, but I don't think WA is broken because a team full of minotaurs would have problems.

Second,l since any proof given is unilaterally shot down as being from a league that isn't nearly violent enough, or some other bogus blowoff, I gotta say trying to prove giving SPP's for fouls is not overpowered is probably pointless.

Perhaps I am over-explaining, but the problem is not a matter of "was the problem of 3rd edition foul wars corrected?" We've all stated that it was. The question Wes and Icedman are posing now is was it over-corrected?

Before you all state an emphatic "no" think about it. The question posed this way has no proof from your side either. You played 3rd then you played LRB.

These guys realize that in order to get anything changed you'll need proof that it would be better with a change, that's what Icedman is trying to gather, and I think it is worth a look. Those that say "no Spps" are the control environment without SPP's, play straight LRB and no SPP's for fouls, and the other group should be straight LRB with SPP's for fouls. All other things should be equal. If there ends up to be no difference in the leagues, then it ain't the SPP's that are causing the fouls.

With that resolved, you may still not want them, but your argument against them should become more sophisticated.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:12 am

i just finished a match against a norse team and he must have fouled me about 7 times 5 of them with the eye on him

the only time he got sent off was when he used his dirty player and si a hobbo, every other roll he got away with it

I think its perfectly fine as it stands, its not gone overkill and chatting to coaches who do foul a lot think its fine as it is

If someone wants to try a league allowing spp for fouls and then they get lots of dirty player and start foul wars, they can go ahead. If they don't end up in foul wars then they aren't showing the problem that will occur in leagues that do.

The bottom line is I still haven't seen a good reason why spp for fouls should be back in anyway?!?

Dragoonkin · Post by **Dragoonkin** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:23 am

We'll just use the simplest argument ever.

If you don't like the way the rule is in the book, then house-rule it. If enough of your league likes having Fouling SPPs, then you shouldn't have a problem with this.

The only place where it would really matter that you play a house is tourneys...where SPPs aren't kept track of ANYWAY (generally).

So it works well all-around.

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:29 pm

Two things,

the only time he got sent off was when he used his dirty player and si a hobbo, every other roll he got away with it

What is a hobbo? If it's a halfling or a hobgoblin you aren't using LRB because there aren't allies except for Big Guys. You had a 50/50 chance and only tossed him once? We your league obviously doesn't roll as many 6's as mine does. Good to see my dice have relatives elsewhere.

We'll just use the simplest argument ever. If you don't like the way the rule is in the book, then house-rule it.

That is simple, good thing you were here,

Thankfully the reason for this board is to discuss such matters, obviously if everyone just house-ruled things, BB would not have developed into the game it is today.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:29 pm

sean newboy wrote:In other words if dp is changed to help with the igemoy/ref roll, then most of the problems with fouling will be fixed in your opinion?

There are currently no problems with fouling. But it's a fine line to walk, and any change you could make would have a very high chance of upsetting the balance.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:35 pm

dakkakhan wrote:What is a hobbo? If it's a halfling or a hobgoblin you aren't using LRB because there aren't allies except for Big Guys. You had a 50/50 chance and only tossed him once? We your league obviously doesn't roll as many 6's as mine does. Good to see my dice have relatives elsewhere.

He didn't say what team he was playing, only that it was against norse. It's not 50% (how often will i have to say this before some of you guys get it?), it's 41.67%. The argue the ref roll is very important to consider.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 6:20 pm

I don't buy this. Was there a survey done? Did someone poll the players? I do know that the loudest players dislike SPPs for fouling. The online community is not the whole community. Most players I know want SPPs for fouling, that doesn't mean everyone does.

Pariah wrote:The biggest problem is that the main bulk of the Blood Bowl community does not want SPP's awarded for fouling. At some time you just have to accept that you are a minority.