Just an idea...

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:02 pm

Hey, I want the cards back to! I like the random factor to the game. Opposing coaches, throwing banana skins on the field, someone hired a wizard to send a huge flying fist on one of the players. Dwarfs or goblins rigging the pitch with spike traps, and someone bursting the ball..

One day you spot a fantastic player amongst your fans, and hire him on, the opposing coach actually trying to outbid you on a player.

It was hilarious. I miss it lots.

But, from what I've heard, GW actually lost the printout file for the cards, that was why they were removed, no other reason.

*sigh* The cards really should be brought back.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:08 pm

Don't mind Zombie, BB, he has avery narrow understanding of the world.

In the 14th century Zombie would be the one mocking you for suggesting the world was round. Or the 17th century doctor laughing at you for asking him to wash his hands. It's funny how science spends more time being wrong than it does being right but it can never seem to see anyone else's view.

Don't even bother, Bullbear, just let him think that he is your intellectual superior. He will never ante up and play Blood Bowl against us to prove his intellectual superiority, nor will he ever admit that he doesn't see the whole picture, so it's always better to just let him blather on about how over the course of 2000 games he is right. lol

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 8:38 pm

Don't mind Pariah, he doesn't understand probabilities. And probabilities aren't science, they're plain math.

And if i remember correctly, i did offer to play against you using BBirc way back, but you're the one who backed down. Besides, one game isn't enough to prove anything. A best of 7 might be. Count me in if it means using javebowl, but PBEM just seems extremely boring to me. And i never said i was better than you. All i said is that math is better than you!

BullBear · Post by **BullBear** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 11:38 pm

Pariah, I know, I know.

I also find it slightly humorous that he kept saying orcs were the greatest team hands-down, yet I don't recall seeing any orc teams at the top of his "league's" list.

But you're right, science does prove unreliable in the long run.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sun Mar 23, 2003 11:42 pm

Well, nobody picked them except a girl who had never played the game before. When i do play orcs though, watch out! Or any other good coach for that matter.

Besides, what's funny is when someone says that a team is too strong just because it's dominating their league. That's pretty biased. Strength on paper is more important than results in one particular league.

BullBear · Post by **BullBear** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:46 am

Well, nobody picked them except a girl who had never played the game before.

you don't know the power of probabilities and how accurate it is at what it does.

Are they accurate enough for this girl to strongarm your league with orcs? You've said the numbers and probabilities are there, and they (the orcs) should dominate. Then she should, due to the inate accuracy of probabilities. Unless,...you mean...there's more to it than numbers....

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 1:57 am

There is no way of predicting how people will end up playing. I dont always play the same way from game to game and i doubt anyone else always makes the same decisions from game to game.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:05 am

BullBear wrote:
Well, nobody picked them except a girl who had never played the game before.

you don't know the power of probabilities and how accurate it is at what it does.
Are they accurate enough for this girl to strongarm your league with orcs? You've said the numbers and probabilities are there, and they (the orcs) should dominate. Then she should, due to the inate accuracy of probabilities. Unless,...you mean...there's more to it than numbers.... :wink:

If you'd at least listened to me before, which you obviously didn't (either that or you only hear what you want to hear), you'd know that i said that the races are balanced enough that coaching skill the biggest factor, but that with equal coaching skills, orcs are easily the best race around.

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:32 am

I'd like to tell you all a story...

It all happened at Games Day, many years ago in Baltimore, I eagerly awaiting the start of the Final Match to determine the champion in the Warhammer tournament.

As I watched the two players set up their minis, unit after unit, one was skaven, the other bretonnian (I think, I don't play WFB). Anyway, after deployment, the two players looked over their opponents forces, then suddenly the skaven player says "well, if you win the die roll to go first, you won the game." To the GW staffers standing nearby horror, the brettonnian player did just that and the skaven player began removing his units.

You see, he had worked it out in his head that there was almost no probability that he could win. The staffers began pleading with him to play the game anyway, the assembled crowd began shouting "just play the game!" But he knew the numbers and to him, like zombie I presume, the numbers don't lie.

I gotta say it was the lamest display of sportsmanship (if nothing else) that I had ever seen. Honestly, if you work the numbers out to this degree, I don't understand how you enjoy this game. Go balance a checkbook or something, damn!

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 2:41 am

Zombie doesn't doesn't understand that i have genius IQ and attended a special school because of it. Nor does he understand that I didn't back down.

I'll take you on right now. Send me an HTML of your Orc team and I'll set up the match. Darth_Viagra at Hotmail.com.

Let's rock, Zombie. I'll take you on any time you are ready.

If you prefer we can have a neutral party set up the match. I'd rather have Galak or somebody monitor the file for cheating anyway.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:20 am

Is javabowl operational enough that we can use it? If so, then pick any race you want except dwarf or chaos dwarf (i already told you that i leave the goblins on the bench against those, so there's nothing to prove there). Then show me how to get the tool set up, and you've got a game. I'll even reinstal ICQ on my comp to make communication easier. My email is slalancette at hotmail dot com.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:30 am

Zombie wrote:Is javabowl operational enough that we can use it? If so, then pick any race you want except dwarf or chaos dwarf (i already told you that i leave the goblins on the bench against those, so there's nothing to prove there). Then show me how to get the tool set up, and you've got a game. I'll even reinstal ICQ on my comp to make communication easier. My email is slalancette at hotmail dot com.

I believe the choice of weapons is mine to make. Only you would make a challenge and the try to choose the weapons as well.

Like I said before, we'll use PBeM so that it can be monitored by a 3rd party. And you can't win vs. Dwarfs then your whole argument is shot down right there.

Don't give me that crap. Either Orcs are over powered or they aren't. If you can't show that they can dominate in any situation then there is nothing to prove.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:48 am

Like i already said many times before, they become really good once they've got 15 or 16 players and can leave the gobbos on the bench on defense. The gobbos are what makes them too good, but i don't use the gobbos against dwarves or chaos dwarves, so playing against those would prove nothing.

We could play gobbo-less 100 TR orcs against 4-gobbos 100 TR orcs, or we could play with more advanced teams, for example using Gary Moriarty's 150 TR tournament rules (or 200 TR for that matter), and you could take any race except dwarves or chaos dwarves. If you want, pick another race and give them plenty of tackle, i don't care. But since you'd be adjusting your team to best beat mine, at least tell me your race (not your players and skills) in advance, so i can prepare my team too and it will be fair.

Like i said, i don't mind playing against dwarves or chaos dwarves, but it wouldn't prove anything, as my claim is that gobbos are what makes orcs too good, and i don't use gobbos at all against those. I don't want to play against you to prove to you that i'm a better coach. That's not my claim at all. I just want to prove that gobbos make orcs too good, that's all.

We'd have to use a tool other than PBEM, which is out of the question for me, because Blood Bowl to me is meant to be played under 3 hours, not under a month! I proposed BBirc long ago (which could be monitored easily), but i don't think it's working anymore. Can JavaBowl be monitored?

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 4:32 am

PBeM can easily be played in under 3 hours.

And like I said, your contention is that gobblins make Orcs "too good".
By "too good" I would have to assume you mean unbalanced. If you can't prove that orcs are unbalanced with a 100 point team then what is the point?

That's like saying that dwarfs are unbalanced against elves and skaven! It's ridiculous! If you can't beat me with a team you claim is "too good" then I say you are talking crap. If it makes you feel better I'll use a 100 TR human team but I refuse to let you dictate what team I'll use. That's just not how it is done my friend. YOu go ahead and use the 4 gobbo "too good" team and I'll use a Human, Norse, or High Elf team or something else. I'll keep from playing dwarfs because that would put too much realism in it for you.

And yes, this is about who is a better coach, you have repeatedly claimed intellectual superiority over myself and others on this board...well step up chump. Put up or shut up.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Mar 24, 2003 6:21 am

It's not about who's the better coach. That's what you want to make it but it's not what it is. I said long ago that goblins made orcs too good. You asked for me to prove it through a game and i accepted to do it through BBirc, which was big at the time. For whatever reason, the game never happened. And now you finally admit that you just wanted to show me that you are better than i am. Well, i'm not interested in that sort of thing. Frankly, i don't care who's a better coach.

My claim is that orcs with 15-16 players and including 4 gobbos will statistically (meaning it will happen more often than not) beat any other race with the same TR assuming equal coaching skill. Another claim is that starting orc teams with 4 gobbos are very decent against any team but dwarves or chaos dwarves. I would never advise somebody playing orcs to start with 4 goblins if he had to play against one of those teams in his first game. Either delay the game until later in the season, or start your team differently if the league setup makes it so that you have to play them early.

Now, if you want to challenge one of those claims in a live medium (javabowl, BBirc, or anything else that's live, i.e. not the PBEM crap which i won't touch with a 10-foot pole), great. If not, than there's no point in continuing this discussion.

And if all you're after is proving that you're a better coach than i am, tough luck, i'm not interested. You'll probably get that chance sometime in the future, either through some online league or at some tournament. But i probably won't be playing orcs, as those are not my specialty. I consider myself as more of a specialist with wood elves and chaos dwarves, with orcs coming 3rd and probably skaven 4th. We'll see how it turns out. Either way, i'm not in a hurry for proving my "talent" against yours, and see no urging reason for doing so. It's not like playing against you would be something i'd enjoy anyway.