general conclusion= Big guys+Piling On=Unbalanced

[dakkakhan]

Quite right. I'm not worried about the POn mummies when I play with elves. I'm worried about them when they're next to my longbeards and need only 5+ to break AV. Not nice.

This is called an "in-game player turnover accelerator" that's a good thing.
And it works on Bashy as well as speed teams.

Gken wrote:

piling on is not just for elf players....I played a dwarf guard team against a piling on team and by the end of the game I had 6 players in the injured box. I could barely field dwarves....Piling on is broke.

how many players did you retire after that game Gken? How many died? I think there is a misconception that broken armor = destroyed players, sure sure, I hear you, it threw a wrench in your game because you are not used to playing with fewer than 10 or 11 players, but seriously, how bad was the end result for your team? And how high were the TR's these two sides, if you consider them a POn team?

Was it so bad you lost a FF? Gasp! Bad enough that some of your players may have to sit out the next match too?!

[roysorlie]

If we are going to nerf PO's enough to stop hurting high armour guys as much, I'm actually against it.

I far prefer PO +5, than limiting it to po+2 or 3. Because that way, it starts mainly beeing a problem for low AV teams.

In which case, It's better if it trashes orcs and dwarves practially as easily as elves, norse, skaven and amazon.

Also, I think maybe limiting it's availability would be a good thing, but making it a ST trait, just means teams without ST acces lose out.

make PO a General trait. You don't need to be a black orc, to jump on someone lying down.

[Dave]

and gobs and 'flings then?

[Zombie]

It seems obvious to me, that he only reason PO has become too powerful, is IGMEOY. Earlier, you knew youtook a risk lying down. Not so anymore.

Not even remotely close to the truth. When we played with a harsher IGMEOY in 3rd ed, nobody took piling on. The two real reasons are:

- All the other hurting skills have been toned down. Dirty player and mighty blow only work on armour or injury, assists on a foul are harder to come by, and with all the traits now only available on a double, claw and razor sharp claw have become less frequent.

- Piling on has been improved incredibly by making it be called after the armour roll. This contrasts a lot with the other point above.

[Dave]

hmmm could be true as well. Still I think that a lot of acces to fouling could decimate the PO-ers.

I prefer it going back to before the roll..

PS Good Morning.

[DoubleSkulls]

It seems obvious to me, that he only reason PO has become too powerful, is IGMEOY.

Not the only reason. Its the only bashing skill that actually got better (because it used to be go prone before the Av roll) - MB is weaker as is DP.

Reduction in fouling has a two sided effect - not only is it safer to lie down but it means you can't rely on fouling to get opponents off the pitch and generate SPPs.

( Oh my god I'm turning into Zombie)

[roysorlie]

It seems obvious to me, that he only reason PO has become too powerful, is IGMEOY. Earlier, you knew youtook a risk lying down. Not so anymore.

Not even remotely close to the truth. When we played with a harsher IGMEOY in 3rd ed, nobody took piling on. The two real reasons are:

- All the other hurting skills have been toned down. Dirty player and mighty blow only work on armour or injury, assists on a foul are harder to come by, and with all the traits now only available on a double, claw and razor sharp claw have become less frequent.

- Piling on has been improved incredibly by making it be called after the armour roll. This contrasts a lot with the other point above.

My point is, we never saw PO used before. Based partially on your statement above, I agree. There were no Big Guys to give it to back on 3d ed, (at least the one we played in). There was the option to give it to mummies. Mummies would still be nasty with PO back then. Never happened, because lying down on the field back then was asking to be hurt.

We never played with IGMEOY during 3d ed, But I bet you, if we did, all mummies would start using PO, and likely a few Black Orcs too.

I know this for a fact, because I vividly rmemeber discussing with the other coaches, how useless PO was when any player that went prone would be kicked the shit out of. If that threat wasn't present (I.E IGMEOY) Alot of players would sport PO.

[Zombie]

My point is, we never saw PO used before. Based partially on your statement above, I agree. There were no Big Guys to give it to back on 3d ed, (at least the one we played in). There was the option to give it to mummies. Mummies would still be nasty with PO back then. Never happened, because lying down on the field back then was asking to be hurt.

Well, in the version of 3rd ed i was playing near the end, there were two big guys per team instead of just one like we have now (though their negative skills were harsher), and IGMEOY was MUCH harsher than it is now. Yet, piling on was nowhere to be seen, due to the two reasons given in my above post.

With the current, very mild IGMEOY, i wouldn't be scared to kick a piling on big guy with my worthless dirty player lineman even if the ref was watching. It would still be worth it.

[roysorlie]

Double post, sorry.

[roysorlie]

My point is, we never saw PO used before. Based partially on your statement above, I agree. There were no Big Guys to give it to back on 3d ed, (at least the one we played in). There was the option to give it to mummies. Mummies would still be nasty with PO back then. Never happened, because lying down on the field back then was asking to be hurt.

Well, in the version of 3rd ed i was playing near the end, there were two big guys per team instead of just one like we have now (though their negative skills were harsher), and IGMEOY was MUCH harsher than it is now. Yet, piling on was nowhere to be seen, due to the two reasons given in my above post.

Oh, I agree, your argument is absolutely valid. But I belive you would find PO quite devastating if you tried it back then. Have to remember, with +5 (+1) to AV and +1 to injury, you will averagely knock a guy out each time you successfully block him. Moreover, you will at the least in all likelyhood stun him.

So, let's imagine an orc team, with 2 ogres, 4 blackorcs, with PO, block and MB. vs say, skaven. If you were in a position to block with each of them, you might succed in at least 4 of the blocks. Given Linerats av 7, you would likely injure one of them at least, KO at least 2, while 1 might be stunned. Quite worthwile if you ask me.

[Toby]

Difference in Strength + Announced before roll would fix it.

[Thadrin]

problem with difference in strength: what if my Longbeard wants to pile onto a Black Orc? or is there a minimum +1 to the roll with your method? I don't think anyone would ever take it if we used the STR difference method - apart from big guys. It ain't worth going prone for +1 on armour. I think the primary exponents of the art are Norse Blitzers. Why take it away from them?

And why nerf one of the few STR skills THAT much?

[grotemuis]

I would say a definite NO to difference in strength. Like Thadrin said no-one would take it except big-guys. So it's an unusable skill with that correction.

[Thadrin]

You could always make it a fixed +3, with a minimum 3 str to use the skill.

[Redfang]

As was posted in a different thread a few months ago; the problems with Pile On did not arrise until the Khemri came out and teams with 4 Str5 Piling On players appeared. 1 Str5 Pile On Big Guy still should not be that much of a problem. If you want this skill downtoned a bit, let it be rolled before the Armour roll again. the only problem than is with Khemri teams; if there still is a problem.