BB-Mag 5 Lots of fun stuff

[Ghost of Pariah]

[Mestari]

I would have loved to have made the Ref Roll the penalty roll, and if I have anything to do with the final version, it will be.

In which case for some of the weapons the ref roll should be made a bit harder to pass. I like the 50% chance of losing the weapon per game.

EDIT: forgot the verb from me sentence....

[KnuckleGutKiller]

I am still waiting for mag #5

[GalakStarscraper]

I see a big problem with the responses Neo's gotten here so far. Too many of them consist of "Hey, how come my X can't get a Y weapon?" whereas Neo has repeatedly expressed a willingness to modify the list and an interest in reviews of the MECHANIC.

Milo the reason I'm busting JKL's chops is I love the game mechanic. Sorry for not saying so. So since the game mechanic is so good, I find myself thinking .... D*MN ... just once I'd like to see an experimental rule that 3 seconds into reading the thing I don't see an obvious need for revision. THAT is why we are busting JKL on this one. He's been here. He's seen the opinions. He HAD to know this response was coming.

Come on Milo, while I understand that's exactly why the rules are experimental ... it would be nice to just once not feel like the experimental rule needs tweaked immediately.

Case in point ... since the MBBL uses all current experimental rules as official... here's what I see in the MBBL.

Kicking rules ... changed from the printed material majorly by Chet with input from the MBBL and NFL leagues.
Ally teams: Too good ... changes made to the team before they started for testing.
Khemri: Too freaking powerful ... changed to lose the MB from the Mummies and some AG 2 to give the team ball handling issues.
Necromantic: The Werewolf was a pathetic joke, too expensive, and dies too easily. Returned to the Were to his 2nd edition stats that he should have had all along.
Vampire: WAY too broken. Currently trying COFAB as a fix.
Nurgle's Rotters: Misprinted at 0-6 Rotters and does BB really NEED a 160k Big Guy ... come on if he costs more than 130k he too freaking good and the game doesn't need a continuing spiral of "too good" players added.
Now Secret Weapons ... great mechanic ... wonderful mechanic ... the allowed list could have been sooooooooooo much better. If JKL would have given the weapons to the teams that made sense and ignored the minis (since he was breaking the mini=fig rule ANYWAY), I would have been finally happy with an experimental rules article for the first time as printed.

I think this is the problem, Milo. I'm more than happy to realize that the experimental rules are printed as experimental because they need testing, but it is a little depressing to read an article .... see an obvious change that is needed ... come on TBB to say so and see that 5 other coaches have already said the same thing.

So my opinion, great SW rules ... fix the team list.

Galak

[MistWraith]

Let me second that.

Great rules mechanic, crappy list of who can take what.

[Ghost of Pariah]

Testify!

[Redfang]

I agree as well

I only think that the Deathroller at that cost is too bad an investment to ever use unless necessary to help with an overpowerful opponent.

I therefore am a bit disappointed since I hoped the deathroller would again be the Dwarven Big Guy it used to be.

R

[Dangerous Dave]

I haven't seen BB Mag 5 yet.. so difficult to comment on the detail. However, whilst it makes sense for official rules / teams to have minis, IMO it would be sensible for Experimental rules to be either or. I mean why would Fanatic want to produce minis for experimental positions or teams which don't make it to Official status? They would be an expensive waste. Surely it would be better to use experimental rules to test out acceptance and if the community wants it then Fanatic will know they have a winner to produce some minis for.

Of course if there are already some minis available for an experimental rule then so much the better. In fact Fanatic already seem to be doing this since there is no mini for the Khemri Star Player and the Necromantic minis are not complete (suggestion "use Frank and Wilhelm... we will do other minis later").


Dave

[GalakStarscraper]

@ GalakStarscraper

In the first post it says there is an article on rules for playing on the deck of an ship. I was wondering what that is? New field? Just different rules like sliding a couple of fields due to the waves, players throwing up due to sickness (and being put in the sick bay), ....

Its another article by the Browns. They write well and Andy loves them as they've been in every Mag since he took over in #3. By saying its an artilce by the Browns means that its got a lot of fluff and flavor.

They built a special ship pitch. They made rules for big waves hitting the ship and moving all the players, they made rules for going overboard, and they made a new kickoff table. Article was too big for one issue so it was to be continued into issue #6.

Galak

[plasmoid]

I totally agree with Galak (about 5 posts up)
See Galak - we don't "always" disagree
Martin

[neoliminal]

Everyone seems to be agreeing with Galak about the experimental rules. There seems to be an assumption that I wasn't following the threads here on TBB, which isn't true. I read them all.

But I also had input from other sources that no one here was influenced by. If taking a concensus of TBB was the easy way to write new experimental rules, we'd all do it.

Perhaps the choice I made (making a list based on the mini's I could find from the GW range, past and present) was flawed, but it was the best course of action I had at the time.

The important thing here is to test the mechanic. The list is just a starting point. I was specifically told not to make new Secret Weapons, for example... even though I have a ton of ideas. So I worked up the best mechanic that would allow us (the community) to easily introduce new SWs later.

So start testing!!

[GalakStarscraper]

Everyone seems to be agreeing with Galak about the experimental rules. There seems to be an assumption that I wasn't following the threads here on TBB, which isn't true. I read them all.

JKL ... man you guys are sensitive.

Okay, keep in mind that if everyone is agreeing with Galak ... they are also agreeing with the fact that I said the game mechanic was wonderful ... PLEASE do not lose sight of that.

Also, my comment was NOT that you are not following the threads here ... it was that you HAD to know there would be objections over the teams list. The mini rule excuse doesn't work even if I understand the intent.

My comment here is simple ... most of us and definitely myself think you have some solid well done SW rules. Like I said I just wish such solid rules could have included a better team list. I'll email you at some point and we can discuss what you feel is an appropriate team list to use without the whole fig=rule nonsense. My league will use those rules for Season 3.

Okay, so enough bashing of JKL's team list and BBRC folks rallying to his defense.

What is missing from the team lists:

Here are my thoughts off what is missing (and yes it should include the experimental team IMO since we are supposed to be testing those as well) ...

Ball and Chain: Skaven (???)
Blunderbuss: Skaven (???)
Chainsaw: Amazon, Khemri, Necromantic, Norse, Nurgle's Rotters
Poisoned Dagger: Chaos Dwarf, Human, Lizardmen, Amazon

These are the holes that I see. The Skaven and B&C can be ignored by its an easy conversion from an Incense Bearer fig. And I'm not sure if Jezzrail is big enough for a football but I'm betting that would be an easy conversion for a Skyre Clan member.

For the allied teams, I'd add the rule that if the native race could use a Secret Weapon then that player can be armed with one.

That would about cover it I think.

Anyway .. AGAIN ... great mechanic JKL ... good work.

Galak

[neoliminal]

Sorry if I came off testy.

The changes you suggest seem reasonable.

[Darkson]

Perhaps the choice I made (making a list based on the mini's I could find from the GW range, past and present) was flawed, but it was the best course of action I had at the time.

But I thought GW/fanatic were big on people doing conversions?

The important thing here is to test the mechanic. The list is just a starting point. I was specifically told not to make new Secret Weapons, for example... even though I have a ton of ideas. So I worked up the best mechanic that would allow us (the community) to easily introduce new SWs later.

So start testing!!

But how can we test SW on the different races to see if the mechanics hold up, when there's no rules for said races?

I not having a go personally Neo, but it's just we've waited for such a long time for proper SW rules, and when they finally come out they seem only half finished.


P.S. I'd like to suggest another SW. HORNED HELMET Norse/Chaos - Same as Horns Trait. Penalty 9+ (ref sees it as essential protection on the field) Cost ?


Editted for spelling - again!

[nouge]

In reference to Galak's suggested ammendment to the SW availabilities:

I'd be wary of handing game-changing SWs like the Blunderbus to teams which are able to capitalise much more on it's use, like Skaven. It was never much of a problem IMO for Chaos Dwarves having it because it was basically not really that effective - it was difficult for Mad Eye to pick up the ball, and only really a great option in desperate circumstances.

[rant]

Even with the Dwarfs having the Blunderbuss (with runners with surehands and pass potential) it becomes very powerful. Who cares about advancing the cage anymore? A dwarf runner with Blunderbuss can advance lazily down the field in a cage until a loose runner or blitzer is in striking distance of the endzone - keep a reroll for a catch, and it's an instant touchdown. Guess this problem can be solved by limiting the SW to Linemen, as some are suggesting.

Anyway, that's a bit off the point of what I really wanted to say, which was that I'm really looking for some SW rules that can potentially become part of the the official rules - that's what we ultimately want, right? And because I want them to be official, I'm all in favour of _limiting_ the teams that SW are available to. I think SW should add flavour to different teams, rather than just being generally available to all and sundry. I also don't want wacky 'experimental' rules that completely change (unbalance?) the game by dropping a whole load of new SWs into it - they should enhance what already exists by adding some different options (like the Lizardman team, which plays very differently from those already avaiable, without the need for a whole lotta new rules).

So I guess I'm a little conservative on this issue. Obviously, the new teams should be considered in the SW lists, but I still think the SW should be specialist items, in terms of being limited to only a couple of teams. I think the BB mag #5 list is not to bad in this respect, though I am a bit concerned about every second team owning a chainsaw.

[/rant]