BB Mag #6

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:15 pm

Further to my note re Ogres, here is my team progression for the first skill:

3 Piling On Ogres for Offence on the LOS

3 Block Ogres for Defence on the LOS

2 Ogres with either doubles, +1 AG, Pro, Sure Hands or Pass etc.

Second skills will include a lot of Pro to get over the failed BoneHead rolls.

This gives you a mean front line and a bit of ball / Gobbo handling. The Gobbos will get the standard skills

Catch
Sure Feet
Sidestep

on doubles

Block
Dirty Player

I suspect that this team would be lethal....... put it this way I am playing with an all AG 2 Khemri team.... this would be a breeze in comparison.

Dave

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:57 pm

Well ... the MBBL is going to test it as is, because I've been asked to prove that its broken.

To me there are two GLARING holes in the team.

1) Its broken. Take a Khemri team that was already considered too powerful ... now give the strong players more movement and give them access to 8 players with AG 3. .... this really is super sized Khemri team ... if that doesn't terrify you into agreeing that the team has no place in BB ... nothing will (especially since the team can get rerolls to use to for critical Bonehead failures)

2) This team no questions asked makes the Goblin team obsolete and screw the argument that secret weapons will make the Goblins stand out. 10k extra for a Reroll does not make this different from a Goblin team. I'm basically sick to my stomach that this is the best there was to offer after months of talking about the team.

But they want data .... this is one of the times I really envy the FUMBBL leagues ability to crank out results.

The FUMBBL league is clearly not something I can alter, but if I had a single BB wish right now it would be that rather than have Division X, the FUMBBL league used both normal and BB Mag Experimental teams straight from the mag in the normal league AND that they had SOME method of handicapping.

Christer, your league could make a HELLALISH impact on the game if your league's results were seen as valid test data ... right now they are not and being a Numba Cruncha thats like being the guy from the Greek myth that can never die of stravation and has the fruit tree where the fruit is alway 1 inch away no matter what he does. I cannot change the FUMBBL league, but there are days I wish I wish I had the time to start a small Java league that would have the same success in terms of popularity where I could do this, so that we the coaches would have a nice mound of hard data to prove a team like this has no busy in BB.

Galak

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:17 am

Yer i said to christer we needed to get a handicap system put in.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:38 am

Galak if you put that piece of crap ogre team in the MBBL then I just can't continue in that league anymore!

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 12:46 am

I've gotta put my 2p in here. I can't see why we need hard data to prove a team is broken when anybody with any experience and half a brain can see that it's broken on paper. It's a thankless task and an unnecessary one IMO. The community would be better employed playtesting stuff where the jury's still out.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:48 am

Guys, let me make two things clear:

This is an experimental team. It's not official, and may very well never become official in it's currently printed form. If you like the minis, buy them. If you don't like them, don't. But I wouldn't let some beta-test rules decide that for you. Personally, I think the minis are pretty nice and worth buying. [Pariah -- insert BBRC bashing here, as I'm actually suggesting that rules not determine whether or not you buy minis.]

Secondly, I understand that you guys don't like this team and have your own team that you guys developed. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but it's more likely to see a modified version of this team than the one you guys suggested. I think we could find a compromise version that might be more balanced and suitable for everyone.

Mind if I make a couple comments about your proposed ogre list and how they might be combined somewhat? I did like that your list brought back the Blitzer/Blocker split that 2nd Edition had, and your statistics for the two seemed reasonable. I wasn't a big fan of the 4ST linemen, and I think those might be the death of the team if it were submitted to Fanatic as it stands right now. The new minis are, in a word, beefy, and I think Jervis and Andy would argue (rightly, I think) that even the smallest Ogre should still be bigger than Chaos Warriors and Black Orc Blockers.

But I personally agree with concerns that 0-8 Ogres / 0-8 Goblins may be over the top. I personally haven't played a game with them yet, so I could be wrong on that, but I see the same comparisons with the Khemri that you do. The fact of the matter is that the bulk of the team should consist of somewhat sub-par Ogres, not the quite competent version that appears on other teams.

So let me suggest we keep the current 5 5 2 9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TTM statline just for the Ogre Blitzers. Give the team, oh, maybe four of them.

They also need Goblins -- the 2nd Ed team could have them, so there's some historical precendent for them, and personally I think Ogre teams should have part of the aerial attack. Even your list had Goblins on them. Let's shoot for either 0-4 or 0-6 Goblins.

The trick is the linemen. They shouldn't be as skilled as the Blitzers, and should be considerably less reliable. I don't think this should be reflected in ST, but rather in his other stats. Let me go out on a limb and suggest:

0-12 Ogre Blocker 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Mighty Blow, TTM 100k

So, the total list would look like:

Code: Select all

0-12  Ogre Blocker    4  5  1  9  Really Stupid, Mighty Blow, TTM   100k
0-4   Ogre Blitzer    5  5  2  9  Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TTM        120k
0-4   Goblin Catcher  5  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff        40k

That leaves you with 4 Boneheaded players, 4 Goblins, and at least 3 Really Stupid players out on the field at one time. The Goblins are the only thing that can make the Blockers more reliable, but tying them to the Blockers means you can't throw them, they can't sneak through lines, etc. They just become Ogre herders. Plus, they're really BREAKABLE Ogre Herders, with the +1 to injury and the 2 ST.

I think this leaves a playable team (4 AG3, 4 AG2 players), but one with an achilles' heel -- targeting the Goblins will really cripple the team, since the Blockers aren't your cream of the crop Ogre.

A question is: Should the Ogres have Big Guy? I'm not sure about that. I guess I could go for it either way, and maybe it should be determined based on some testing.

Would any of you guys consider this a more balanced/decent compromise team? It keeps the focus of your team, with having multiple quality levels of ogres, plus goblins, but I think these Ogres are more in line with the Ogre fluff.

Any thoughts? This is just a brainstorm on my part, so please don't consider it finalized rules or The Gospel According To The BBRC(tm). I happen to think that this team might fly better with other BBRC members, but either change would require some considerable debate and discussion.

Milo

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:10 am

With Milo's team i would give the blitzers but not the blockers the ability to use the team rerolls, say that the blockers just dont have the mental wattage to do so. As far as my opinion of the published version of the team, i say i could prove it broken in 5 games or less, in any league. I did quite well with lizardmen in 3rd edition with 6 st4's and 2 st 5's, this team would be childs play.

Milo i dont think our disliking this published version has anything to do with various peoples pet versions of an ogre team. Its more to do with the fact that bb mag seems to publish the worst/most broken versions of teams possible. Why is bb mag consistantly publishing teams that so many people think are obviously overpowered? When tv networks consider whether to respond to the desires of write in campaigns they multiply the responses by 200 to try to estimate how many people like/dislike something but arent willing to write in. Based on that assumption (works for them, they still make money, the majors at least), i would say many have had problems with several experimental teams and bb mag editors should consider changing the submission rules for new teams.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:25 am

I like your version Milo. I would however tweak the Ogre Blockers so that they are more affordable.

How about:

0-12 Ogre Blockers 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Thick Skull 80,000 ST skills only
And after playetesting the other version I would suggest 0-4 goblins at least!

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 3:37 am

sean newboy wrote:Milo i dont think our disliking this published version has anything to do with various peoples pet versions of an ogre team. Its more to do with the fact that bb mag seems to publish the worst/most broken versions of teams possible. Why is bb mag consistantly publishing teams that so many people think are obviously overpowered? When tv networks consider whether to respond to the desires of write in campaigns they multiply the responses by 200 to try to estimate how many people like/dislike something but arent willing to write in. Based on that assumption (works for them, they still make money, the majors at least), i would say many have had problems with several experimental teams and bb mag editors should consider changing the submission rules for new teams.

Sean, I don't know. The BBRC doesn't control what gets printed in the BB Magazine -- that's Fanatic's decision. (I'll note in the interest of full disclosure that two members of the BBRC ARE part of Fanatic, but the rest of us are not.) The BBRC does collaborate on some of the rules that get printed, but the majority of our input comes when it's rules review time.

In other words, we don't write all the rules, but we do have some flexibility to change the rules before they become official. There are still some things that come down to Jervis' decision -- he holds a final veto among the BBRC -- but he and Andy do a great job of listening to our input and have allowed us to overrule them on some issues.

Now, I *do* think that the rules printed in BB Mag are higher quality than those printed in Citadel Journal, but in some cases that's not a huge distinction.

Milo

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:21 am

Pariah wrote:I like your version Milo. I would however tweak the Ogre Blockers so that they are more affordable.

Would you consider the version I posted a reasonable compromise between the TBB roster and the BBMag roster?

How about:

0-12 Ogre Blockers 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Thick Skull 80,000 ST skills only
And after playetesting the other version I would suggest 0-4 goblins at least!

The price can be tweaked some based on playtesting, but my initial thoughts are that they need to keep Mighty Blow (all other big guys have it) and General skill access. The only ST skill only Big Guys were not well regarded. Given that, I think 100k is reasonable. It may be a LITTLE overpriced (essentially a troll without Regen), but for a team where we are concerned about balance problems, I'd rather err by overpricing them and underpowering the team than the reverse.

Milo

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:25 am

Who doesn't like the ST only ogres?

It's one of the factors I think brings balance to this team. Most people on the board agree that the ogres should suck. The fluff calls them one of the worst teams in the sport. Having that much ST with access to block will forever place this team in the disputed category.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 4:34 am

Pariah -- When Big Guys were first proposed by Jervis, they were ST only, could get +1 ST/+1 AV/Lose Negative if they rolled doubles, and could use re-rolls. They also progressed at half rate. We tried to make them more like normal players in the Rules Review, and that was something we got a lot of positive feedback on, so I think it was a popular change.

Another concern is that there aren't a whole heck of a lot of ST skills: Mighty Blow, Break Tackle, Multiple Block, Piling On. Denying players access to at least the General group denies a lot of variety in skill choice. I'm sure we don't want to see teams with nothing but Mighty Blow, Multiple Block, and Piling On on their ST5 players, either.

Again, playtesting may prove me wrong on this, but I think RS on the Blockers will be sufficient to put them in the "incompetent" category. With only four players that can turn RS into BH, a team is likely to be making a couple of RS rolls per turn, and if a team can successfully KO/Casualty the goblins, you'd be faced with an unappealing 7 RS rolls per turn (assuming you can afford that many Ogres -- probably not early on in the season.)

Let's see what other people think. If a majority of people prefer your no-General-Access, no-Mighty-Blow, lower-priced Ogre Blockers to the ones I suggested, I'll go with the majority opinion.

Milo

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 5:23 am

I forgot about the non-really stupid clause! Okay, that may work.

I still say that the Blockers are too expensive. I mean they have +1 MA on a mummy, RS and TTM (which is really gonna be worthless) and they cost just as much.

Otherwise I think we are at a good compromise...although an Ogre Thrower would be fun. lol
0-2 4 5 2 8 bonehead, sure hands, pass, TTM 100K General & Passing

lol Don't know if I'm serious or not. lol

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:12 pm

Sean, I don't know. The BBRC doesn't control what gets printed in the BB Magazine -- that's Fanatic's decision.

Im aware of that and dint mention the bbrc once in my comments. Sadly your rite about the bb rules in CJ and bbmag.

As for the team i think we are getting very workable at this point.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Feb 15, 2003 2:12 pm

Any Orge team needs to have the Big Guy trait IMO. Think about it. You see two Orges playing BB, one (standard Big Guy orge) who can't train have access to RR), the other playing for a 9according to fluff) two-bit Orge team who can train.

I know which one I would freeboot.

Therefore, any Orge who could train with the team (IE use RR) would be snapped up by the major teams.

And also, in the 2nd ed, didn't the Oldheim Orges freeboot humans? Not that I advocating adding humans to the list.