general conclusion= Big guys+Piling On=Unbalanced

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:08 pm

roysorlie wrote:So, let's imagine an orc team, with 2 ogres, 4 blackorcs, with PO, block and MB. vs say, skaven. If you were in a position to block with each of them, you might succed in at least 4 of the blocks. Given Linerats av 7, you would likely injure one of them at least, KO at least 2, while 1 might be stunned. Quite worthwile if you ask me.

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but they're way off. Less than 4 blocks will get the other player down, since many of them will have block and/or dodge. Also, half of the armour piercings would just be stuns, even with mighty blow. Finally, i've learned through experience with my block, piling on, frenzy bull centaur, that with anything less than ST5, piling on hurts you more often than it helps you (if played before the armour roll of course). So i probably wouldn't even give it to any of the black orcs.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:09 pm

I really don't know about this. Big guys gaining piling on has become way to common and boring in our league. For a lot of bashy teams, games quickly turn on who can get the other person's big guy out of the game first.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:13 pm

Hmm apparently the Piling On problem has indeed grown after the post I just referred to...

A different solution: Piling on influences the roll with half strenght rounded up, so Str3 means +2, Str4 means +2, Str5 means +3 etc

Still very good for a Str3 player since it gives a better bonus than Mighty Blow, and because it can be combined with it, and a lot less good for a Big Guy, though still good

If it was to be changed this way, I would consider keeping the choice after the roll...

R

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:16 pm

I think when you imagine a ogre smashing himself on a goblin that this causes more damage than an ogre on an ogre.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:17 pm

Redfang wrote:If it was to be changed this way, I would consider keeping the choice after the roll...

It's already getting changed to before the roll, so forget about that.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 1:23 pm

I meant that if the Piling On skill would be changed according to the halving suggestion I just did, that then I would consider not changing it back to before the roll

@ Toby; you would also expect a Dwarf diving onto a blocked Orc to cause more pain than a Dwarf not diving on top of a blocked orc.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:11 pm

Toby wrote:I think when you imagine a ogre smashing himself on a goblin that this causes more damage than an ogre on an ogre.

True...but +3 fixed bonus, onto a stunty, is going to break armour 5 times of 6 or something like that anyway...so whats the point in mechanicing it that big guy POn onto stunty is BETTER?

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:12 pm

doesn't work. as Redfang pointed out, ST3 vs ST3 would make piling on not existant. Bt does it get taken by ST3 players? Anyway, it shouldnt be a big guy only skill so forget about my suggestion.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:12 pm

Toby wrote:I think when you imagine a ogre smashing himself on a goblin that this causes more damage than an ogre on an ogre.

But that's true anyway, an Ogre hitting a Gobbo will be more painful that an Ogre hitting another Ogre. The strength difference is already represented in the block.

PO is all about how big you are.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:23 pm

12 out of the top 15 casualty leaders in our league have Piling On. Many of them are not exeptional strength players, but blitzers built with PO, MB and tackle to take out agility specialists.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:23 pm

Munkey wrote:
Toby wrote:I think when you imagine a ogre smashing himself on a goblin that this causes more damage than an ogre on an ogre.
But that's true anyway, an Ogre hitting a Gobbo will be more painful that an Ogre hitting another Ogre. The strength difference is already represented in the block.

PO is all about how big you are.

Also, the relative toughness in whichever creature is represented by the AV stat. In the case of an ogre, you would have to roll 5 or more to break, whereas a goblin you would need 3+.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:59 pm

Skummy wrote:12 out of the top 15 casualty leaders in our league have Piling On. Many of them are not exeptional strength players, but blitzers built with PO, MB and tackle to take out agility specialists.

Exactly - making PO happen before the Av roll really screws it for S3/4 guys. It makes it much worse for S5 guys too, because they'll be going prone a lot when the don't need to.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:44 pm

Toby wrote: Bt does it get taken by ST3 players?

Hell yeah! Great skill for Norse Blitzers.

Post by **Dave** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 11:29 pm

Toby wrote:doesn't work. as Redfang pointed out, ST3 vs ST3 would make piling on not existant. Bt does it get taken by ST3 players? Anyway, it shouldnt be a big guy only skill so forget about my suggestion.

Oh yeah. Jump Up, Block, Frenzy, Guess what..

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:04 am

In my last Dwarf team I got bored with all the "Guard" Longbeards, so I developed one with Piling On, and Mighty Blow (did not get MB yet, as I then started playing in a new league, and dropped the team)

In my recent Chaos Team I have a Beastman who, in my first game, got a Niggle and a MVP; he'll get Piling On as a first skill!

R