A Word on Fouling...

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:27 pm

Heheheh ok, guys, you win. I can't take anymore.

I'll house rule it or try it your way, or whatever. You've put me on the defensive then hit me with logical arguments then beaten me bloody...I'm done...

white flag,
thrown towel
fin

Thanks for another good argument. I got involved on this one to defend Icedman's gathering of data. I still support that, and will add my own if possible, but realize that there will be no convincing the core here.

if I hide it to the right perhaps I can have the last....................................................................word.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:22 pm

Ahh.. I remember well the days of the foul wars.
Seems certain teams benefit more of fouling than other teams.

I will make my observasions based on the experiances I have from playing. And as I always play elves, my view will be colored by the fact.

First off, an elf is expensive, as a basic player, 70K is alot to pay.
Also, they usually have low or at least no better, than average AV. (the most common foul victims on elf teams have av7)

And, lastly, elf teams already receive more punishment in the form of block, that other teams. (due to other teams having higher ST players, or higher AV and ST skills available) So that means more elves will likely be prone, than the other team. Which again will result in more fouling possibilities against elves.

Add aging into the equation, with elves more wuickly gaining SPP, elf teams usually see alot more injuries coming their way. And with the revised winnings table, buying new players is usually a slow process.

If you were to add the incentive of SPP, you would quickly notice elf teams suffering from multiple injuries and playerdeaths. In the fumbbl league, I have already had to retire 4 elf teams due to aging and injuries, (and that was mostly playing nice).

On another issue. The very very first skill my first line elf with an increase gets, is Dirty Player. I use him for an incentive to stop my opponent fouling. If you foul me, I will foul you, and I have a DP. If they start fouling me, I will most definatively retaliate. I was born and bred during the foul wars, and I have no compulsion against fouling whatsoever, if my opponent gives me cause. I know I am only 1 amongst very many BB coaches, who have similar feelings. It is my opponent's choice wether or not we start fouling, but I can play as dirty as they come. I have no doubt, whatsoever, that if you reinstall SPP for fouling, The foul wars will return.

But to go a bit off topic, I'm more worried about piling on, than fouls. There is no penalty for PO. And PO can be far more devastating than a DP. (Skaven and chaos teams especially, can easily develope ST 5 Razor sharp claws Piling on's) +5 to AV +2 to injury. Even the beastmen and Linerats can develope dangerously. with Claws and razor sharp claws, or PO and RSC.

Now you can all feel free to berate me for whatever you disagree with in this post

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:08 pm

No berating here, just pointing out that it is a lot easier for Chaos than Skaven. The Rats have only got three players that can get strength skills, while everyone on a Chaos roster can do so. Piling On is going to require doubles for all but three players on a Skaven roster.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:34 pm

roysorlie wrote:

But to go a bit off topic, I'm more worried about piling on, than fouls. There is no penalty for PO. And PO can be far more devastating than a DP. (Skaven and chaos teams especially, can easily develope ST 5 Razor sharp claws Piling on's) +5 to AV +2 to injury. Even the beastmen and Linerats can develope dangerously. with Claws and razor sharp claws, or PO and RSC.

If even the beastmen and Scaven linerats can "easily" develop that way, why are you then worried about piling on?

And there is no penalty either in developing such a linerat.

However, if an ogre has piling on, he will go down as well. Next turn he will have to blitz to continue. If you mark him with one of your players, he will have to dodge or blitz this one player and thus your opponent won't blitz anywhere else (for example close to the ball carrier). If your players have low AV the ogre might remain standing anyway so piling on has no effect. Against high AV teams he will dive often enough so you shouldn't worry too much anyway. And how many injuries will you get, compared to the many stunned results? It's always the mighty orc blitzer with 4 skills lain by the piling on mummy which people have in mind (oh this piling on

) but they don't tell you that for the rest of the game the mummy did either nothing, pushed a black orc or stunned him.

WOW.

I have to admit IMO a beastman with claws and RSC is more threatening.....

Sputnik

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:36 pm

Zombie wrote:Yes it would, and very negatively too. Fouling is essential to get rid of problem players. It's when it's used against anyone, anytime that there's a problem.

That's quite a quandry you have there.

roysorlie · Post by **roysorlie** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:58 pm

Sputnik wrote: If even the beastmen and Scaven linerats can "easily" develop that way, why are you then worried about piling on?

I never said linerats could "easily" develope PO and RSC, I said Rat orges and minotaurs could.

Sputnik wrote: However, if an ogre has piling on, he will go down as well. Next turn he will have to blitz to continue. If you mark him with one of your players, he will have to dodge or blitz this one player and thus your opponent won't blitz anywhere else (for example close to the ball carrier). If your players have low AV the ogre might remain standing anyway so piling on has no effect. Against high AV teams he will dive often enough so you shouldn't worry too much anyway. And how many injuries will you get, compared to the many stunned results? It's always the mighty orc blitzer with 4 skills lain by the piling on mummy which people have in mind (oh this piling on ) but they don't tell you that for the rest of the game the mummy did either nothing, pushed a black orc or stunned him. WOW.

I always play elves, so I have no great excperiance using PO's. I did, however, choose piling on for a wood elf lino, with block. Subsecuently, after 10 matches, he sported 17 casualties, outranking even my treeman.

And on the subject of big guys, obviously, Rat Ogres and minotaurs are the most dangerous, because they can obtain RSC's. But I often see ogre's and trolls with PO too. And they have a much higher cas rating. After all, with st5, you will have a minimum og 7 on the AV check, which almost always ensures the use of MB on the injury roll. An average roll of 7 will KO a player. Quite worth it for the cost of going prone. And, you don't even have to declare the PO, until after the armor check has been made, so you can choose if you want to PO or not.

Considering this, theese players often increase quickly, gaining pro and tackle. Minos and Rogres already have frenzy.

A dirty player is annoying, and needs to be controlled. But is usually manageble. A frenzy, ST5 RSC, PO mionotaur is another matter alltogether.

Sputnik wrote: I have to admit IMO a beastman with claws and RSC is more threatening.....

Of course he is, much more threatening. But that would require two doubles.

But this is primarily a thread concerning fouling, not PO, as all arguments concerning that have been discussed at length at several other posts.[/quote]

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:52 pm

snotsngrots wrote:
Zombie wrote:Yes it would, and very negatively too. Fouling is essential to get rid of problem players. It's when it's used against anyone, anytime that there's a problem.
That's quite a quandry you have there.

Not at all. Keep fouling as it is now and it accomplishes what it needs to, but no more. It's the perfect solution and it's also the simplest one!

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 5:56 pm

Zombie wrote:Not at all. Keep fouling as it is now and it accomplishes what it needs to, but no more. It's the perfect solution and it's also the simplest one!

Wow, this must be an off-week for me, I keep agreeing with Zombie...

That said, Zombie is right here, fouling at the moment is fine. I used to be in the "Bring back SPPs for fouling" group, but after several seasons of MBBL/MBBL2/Tabletop I have changed my mind. I get fouled all the time, and thank god they don't get SPPs for it - let the fouling wars of 3rd ed. stay there.

-Balrog

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:55 pm

roysorlie you mentioned several things about elves and why you think they suffer more from fouling...and while what you said is true there are some grunt arguments.

in specific situations, elves make some of the most dangerous foulers there are. Given the high agility and speed, and the fact that they usually have dodge, it is VERY easy for elves, if they choose to do so, to get all kinds of assists on their fouls.

you also said they fall down more, which i disagree with. well coached elf teams will most often try to dodge away from their opponents as much as possible, and therefore don't all get hit that often. Also, as mentioned, they often have substantial block and dodge, not to mention sidestep, that makes them tougher to knock down when they DO get hit.

sure, they're expensive, and they have average or below average armor. but if you're already being fouled sometimes retaliation is a very good alternative. remember an elf with dirty player adds just as much to injury rolls as an orc with it (and since you can get more assists, it's usually added to the inj roll because you didn't need it for the arm roll)

the point: you don't usually want to start foul wars with elves, but very often you can be the one to finish it

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:10 am

In the heady days of 3rd Ed., the original Spikeheads (Chaos Dwarf) were active in a little league in Guildford.

The player with the most SPPs was a Hobgoblin with Dirty Player. 81 SPPs - not bad for a little hobgob. I think it was 19 CAS.

Under current rules, this would be (say) 10 CAS or less, because of rules changes (inability to use TRR or Pro on Armour/Injury rolls, IGMEOY). I don't think it would be nearly as wild as in the good old days of foul wars.

Hope this helps

Cheers

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:12 am

The player with the most SPPs was a Hobgoblin with Dirty Player. 81 SPPs - not bad for a little hobgob. I think it was 19 CAS.

Alrite that accounts for 38 spp's now where did the rest come from? So far the stats of that player dont say anything about whether or not dp was over the top.

D'Arquebus · Post by **D'Arquebus** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:57 pm

I will start out by saying the previous Poll thread has changed my view on this. I would now agree that SPPs for fouling are not necessary. I play in the same league as Icedman. We never encountered a problem with fouling, even under 3rd Ed. That said, I can understand how and why others did.

I will digress though to say that for many it seemed as though the oppossing coach (and their disfunctional attitude to fun play) was the major reason for the detesting of the fouling, more then the actual rules. This idea was raised in the Glory Rule vs Stalling thread and I think it holds here as well.

So I will keep the SPPs in my league as a house rule and be satisfied with that. However,

roysorlie said

But to go a bit off topic, I'm more worried about piling on, than fouls. There is no penalty for PO. And PO can be far more devastating than a DP.

And this highlights the reason I have always been against the loss of SPPs for fouling, at least until recently. It demonstrates a disturbing tendency to remove the BLOOD from Blood Bowl. By this I mean that now DP is arguably "nuetered" now peoples' eyes are turning to other of the damage causing skills.

NB: Please note that I name no names (other then roy's and only then as an example) and understand that many who have argued aginst fouling SPPs are very much in agreement with me on this new point.

I always defended SPPs for fouling, firstly becasue my (Icedman's) league never had a problem with it over many hundreds of games and teams. Secondly, and probably more pertinently now I have accepted that other people do have a problem, is that it flagged a desire to remove the hurt from the game. Now I can accept that in certain leagues fouling could be disfunctional, but I will never accept a great reduction in the power of hitting in the official rules. The example of Chaos and Claw/Razor Sharps occurred to me also but I would never see this reduced. These payers are scary but there wont be too many (needing the doubles) and so you just have to target them and take them out. Do unto others before they do unto you (a good overall BB startegy).

If it ever got to few if any hitting Cas then I would suggest everyone just play elf teams and try to outscore each other, or better yet just play a real American Football sim (were no players are hurt beyond a couple of games). This is a fantasy game of which a certain risk to players life and limb has always and should (SHALL!!!!!) always remain apart.

Sorry if this rant seems a little strong or offends anyones sensibilities but I have waited along time to post to one of these threads and feel that my concerns need to be heard and considered.

Tamper Magnitude · Post by **Tamper Magnitude** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:36 pm

My league have always played spp's for fouling, and the current rules work fantastically to prevent fouling going over the top. If you don't want your opponent to foul you, you don't foul them back, then they run a high risk of getting many players sent off, which will usually result in them losing.

It does seem the only coaches who object to SPP's for fouling are those that tend to play Elf/passing games, and don't want their precious players stamped on.

On a similar note, I had a game last weekend where my opponent had Grudge match and then got the ref, and I was using Norse, and not too chuffed. Having you r opponent throw 4-5 fouls at your players each turn does grate a bit

Still, won 3-0 though.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:42 pm

Tamper Magnitude wrote:It does seem the only coaches who object to SPP's for fouling are those that tend to play Elf/passing games, and don't want their precious players stamped on.

On the contrary. Most of the players who argue against SPPs for fouling are those who foul the most, (e.g. i play chaos dwarves and have 3 dirty players), and because of that know better than anyone how powerful fouling really is!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:42 pm

I play undead and chaos dwarfs and i don't want spp for fouling, some players will foul with reckless abanadon to get some spp getting sent off or not, thats what used to happen giving spp back will just reintroduce it.