LRB favors AG teams (Rant)

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:53 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Lighten up and use the search facility. Its quite good.

Only if you have some idea of what to search for. "The other thread" doesn't give me much to go on. In fact, in a search, it turned up this thread at the top of the list.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 5:56 pm

Grumbledook wrote:Fine be like that then.

Be like what, exactly? Roll over and admit that my experience isn't as meaningful as folks here, because I'm not a TBB "celebrity?" All's I'm asking for is a little bit of empirical evidence. If it doesn't exist, that's fine - someone just tell me and I'll agree to disagree, but you don't have to just blow off my request.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:35 pm

it would be the large recent aging thread

i was referring to the way about the opinions in there being old hat and not of any worth

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:46 pm

Well, of course -- that's what I was saying too. Opinions are old hat, the arguments are old hat -- I would love to see the data gathering that was proposed at the beginning of the thread. In the end, the thread was no different than hundreds of other threads I've read over the years.

I can accept that at least given this community and the BBRC in general, the rules are not what I currently want (and in my experience, are not what the majority of BB players want either, but I can't prove that either) so to accomplish what I want, I probably have to house rule.

One thing I've thought of, though -- for overly violent match-ups where two teams are content to "pass" the IGMEOY counter back and forth the entire game, is to make IGMEOY counters permenent, at least for the half. After all, why would a ref stop looking at one team just because another team now fouled?

So here's the house rules I'd use in the next league I commish: SPPS for all casualties caused, rather through blocking, fouling or pushing off the pitch (didn't they change that to field even, in the LRB?), you keep the IGMEOY counter for the entire half once you get it (obviously, you need two IGMEOY counters, in case both teams foul now), and MB works the way it used to, i.e. +1 to both AV and injury roll.

At least on that issue -- I'm also not impressed with some of the experimental teams, and I don't understand for the life of me why skills had to be split into skills and traits (making selection much less varied now.) But those are entirely different issues!

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 6:57 pm

Joshua: You get one foul each half when the ref isn't watching you. I have multiple linemen (or lineorcs) on my roster with Dirty Player. I really don't care if they get thrown out as long as I get those cheap shots in on the opposition's talent. My Orcs play to hurt, my Skaven play to score and my Humans play to win. My opponents will tell you that I really, really don't need any more encouragment to foul when playing bashy teams.

By the way, the nonsense about TBB "celebrity" is not going to fly here. There are people I listen to more than others on this board, but it's not because they've got lots of skulls under their name. There are people here I agree with most of the time, and people I disagree with most of the time, but in discussion rooms as in the real world, people who can advance their opinons rationally and in a non-confrontational manner will be the ones who have the loudest voice.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:03 pm

i agree with skummy there, and i'll even add something to what he's saying.

he and i for example don't agree a lot of times, but i still respect his opinion. we see the game in a different way, but that's healthy, natural, and good, as long as we're both grown ups and can handle the fact that not everyone thinks you are always right all the time.

the people i listen to the most are the ones who are the most logical and articulate, and are able to explain why they feel the way they feel in a way that has some kind of bearing on the discussion. "you're wrong and you are dumb" won't get too far.

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:00 pm

Why are you still complaining about how weak bashy teams are, when the FACTS do not back this argument up?

Most leauges, and tournaments (where star players are not allowed) are dominated by bashy teams, with the ocasional wood elf team.

Taking this into account, they should make the agility teams much better, if that is you do not belive the teams are balanced.

Post by **Dave** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 10:40 pm

Joshua Dyal wrote: I can accept that at least given this community and the BBRC in general, the rules are not what I currently want (and in my experience, are not what the majority of BB players want either, but I can't prove that either)

I think most BB players want a clear, accesible set of rules. IMHO the LRB is the clearest, most accesible set of BB rules ever.

Off course it has it's flaws but a game where everyone agrees on is hardly any fun.

For a lot of people here a lot of the fun is 'listening' to other opinions, occasionally flaming them but sometimes agreeing or even learning.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:12 pm

Skummy wrote:By the way, the nonsense about TBB "celebrity" is not going to fly here. There are people I listen to more than others on this board, but it's not because they've got lots of skulls under their name. There are people here I agree with most of the time, and people I disagree with most of the time, but in discussion rooms as in the real world, people who can advance their opinons rationally and in a non-confrontational manner will be the ones who have the loudest voice.

I'm not referring to you specifically here, just the community at large. Although my post count isn't very high, I've been lurking for some time, and I did the same on the old bbowl-l list for years before. Now, more than ever, what the BB community "celebrities" say is taken as gospel by a lot of folks on the online community at large. Because the BBRC has a certain style of play that they obviously prefer (not because of it's superiority, just because of their play preference) then that is the style of play that the LRB very strongly promotes.

And I think a large portion of the community doesn't do a whole lot of rules thinking for themselves. I hear constantly over here, whenever anyone proposes a dissenting opinion, that "at least the rules are more balanced than any other version, so we don't care about any other flaws in them." In my opinion, they are balanced at the expense of good design (wordy complex "patches" may play fine, but they aren't good designs) and the very spirit of blood bowl itself.

Sure, no one wants to play a team that can't support itself because of excessive casualties, but the rules now promote something more akin to pansybowl than bloodbowl. Even the fluff contradicts the way the game plays, now.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:13 pm

MistWraith wrote:Why are you still complaining about how weak bashy teams are, when the FACTS do not back this argument up?

Most leauges, and tournaments (where star players are not allowed) are dominated by bashy teams, with the ocasional wood elf team.

Taking this into account, they should make the agility teams much better, if that is you do not belive the teams are balanced.

Actually, I wasn't so much complaining as I was asking specifically for these so-called facts that you claim to have. To date, I haven't seen a single fact at all. Your observation that bashy teams dominate most leagues and tournaments -- that's not even a fact. Do you have anything at all to back that up? I've seen leagues dominated by elves a lot more often, even in the 3rd edition days.

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:20 pm

wesleytj wrote:the people i listen to the most are the ones who are the most logical and articulate, and are able to explain why they feel the way they feel in a way that has some kind of bearing on the discussion. "you're wrong and you are dumb" won't get too far.

Dude, a challenge you to find me -- anywhere -- where I said anything remotely resembling that. What I would like to see, before I change my opinion, which is based on my experiences over a number of years, is some empirical facts rather than anecdotal stories to support the changes that have made the LRB what it is today. Apparently, nobody has that. So, I say that I prefer a type of game that the BBRC and the LRB clearly do not support, so I accept that in order to get the kind of game I want, I have to use houserules. I do so, and I essentially get shouted down by all the enthusiasts of a game that much more closely resembles football than bloodbowl, and I am the one who's saying "you're wrong and you're dumb?"

Clearly, you've got a strange way of seeing things.

I don't know why I can't express the fact that I think the game has lost touch with it's roots because those in charge of it, the BBRC, clearly prefer a cleaner strategic game and are willing to sacrifice the flavor and extremely fun mayhem that is part and parcel of the Blood Bowl experience in order to get there. In fact, my suggestions I think are well-phrased, reasonable and don't even call for very much change, as I think the LRB is a pretty good ruleset (just lacking BB flavor.) However, I find every time I express that here that I'm the one who's essentially told "I'm wrong and I'm dumb."

Joshua Dyal · Post by **Joshua Dyal** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:28 pm

Politely, of course!

But that's essentially what I'm told nonetheless.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:42 pm

Joshua Dyal wrote:What I would like to see, before I change my opinion, which is based on my experiences over a number of years, is some empirical facts rather than anecdotal stories to support the changes that have made the LRB what it is today. Apparently, nobody has that.

I think it is unlikely that there is going to be much hard evidence to support the changes made to the LRB. Blood Bowl is a game and as such people do not tend to perform any more detailed analysis of the results than has likely already been posted on various threads here.

The rules have evolved over time as people have played the game and found a need for them. From the feedback posted here it seems that people on the whole prefer the changes in the LRB to the original 3ed.

If most players who have played both editions find it more fun to play the LRB the I guess the rules set is heading in the right direction.

There will always be things in the rules that people prefer to play differently and that's where house rules come in. If you want to house rule a couple of things and the players in your league are happy then more power to you. I expect the majority of leagues run with house rules of a very minor sort, if not just to iron out some inconsistencies.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 3:20 pm

Joshua Dyal wrote:
wesleytj wrote:the people i listen to the most are the ones who are the most logical and articulate, and are able to explain why they feel the way they feel in a way that has some kind of bearing on the discussion. "you're wrong and you are dumb" won't get too far.
Dude, a challenge you to find me -- anywhere -- where I said anything remotely resembling that.

What makes you think i was talking to or about you? I was replying directly to the post before mine.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Sat Mar 22, 2003 3:31 pm

for the record, i wasn't trying to call anyone wrong or dumb...to be honest I haven't read most of the posts in this thread...I was just adding to Skummy's thoughts on the type of posts I pay the most attention to, in a GENERAL sense. not aimed at any specific person or post at all.

of course, now I think you're being an ass, but that's just because you're taking everything too personal. but at least that's fixable.