I think Blood Bowl is broken in a number of aspects...

[Dave]

double post, sorry

if you want to help AG teams on the AV part, make the skill, whatever it is an AG trait..

[Toby]

1) If the player ages, he simply is denied the skill for that level

That was my suggestion as well.

make Coaches CHOOSE

A. Apply Ageing Result Roll, or B alternatively consider the Starplayer Roll wasted for this Level.

So you can choose between Improvement + Handicap OR no Improvement.

Just like yu are no longer FORCED to take a Characteristics (MA,ST,AG) increase, you can now take a normal Skill alternatively.


Also, I think Spikes should be a Genaeral SKILL. If you really want to waste a whole Starplayer Level on +1 AV, you are welcome to do so. And it actually balances Wood Elves Since teir Linemen should be 16SPP, Block & Spikes (Toughness, Heavy Armour, i would like to see it named Magic Helmet)

[Snarlton Heston]

I like that too! If the player ages, the coach can choose to accept both or neither!

Snarlton Heston
------------------

I believe elves should age regardless of what is rolled!

[Grumbledook]

i don't like that, cause then you just ignore all aging when you have your player as good as you want him

take a dwarf longbeard, get him guard and mighty blow he doesn't really need any more, though stand firm or dauntless would be nice, not gaining any more skills isn't really a problem for him

now say he ages and get -st at the next one, you just ignore that and your player ist still just as good as he needs to be rather than picking something pretty unimportant (maybe pro?) you just avoid aging all together

if you are gonna do that might as well not have aging

[Jerhod]

i don't like that, cause then you just ignore all aging when you have your player as good as you want him

take a dwarf longbeard, get him guard and mighty blow he doesn't really need any more, though stand firm or dauntless would be nice, not gaining any more skills isn't really a problem for him.

I echo that sentiment.

[Dave]

at first sight I thought it a nice idea but Grumb's comment is just how I think about it now..

[narkotic]

Yes, if you have the choice to ignore aging, you will never ever see a player with -ST or a positional player with -AG on the pitch anymore. A coach would be stupid not to take tha chance to avoid that.

[Haar]

Some good discussion here, good job stirring the pot Toby. Just my two cents.

If you're going to make fun of typing transpositions, get a life. Borken indeed. It's one thing to make a joke about it, but another thing entirely to harp.

On Aging: Just the other night, I was faced with the situation: score with my star witch elf and level her to 51 spp, or pass up a TD before the half? I scored, and luckily she didn't age. But it definitely feels weird to think about not using a player because you don't want them to level. Makes me wish for the "peaked" special play card. But, OTOH, you've gotta control those uber-players, and without aging, the money fix isn't enough. The decreasing income per game needs to go hand in hand with a need for new players, which might only come through aging. Some of my stars are very hard to hurt, and even if they were, that's what 'poths are for. So without aging, there isn't enough turnover of the big star players.

On fouling: when foulers get SPPs, everybody loses. Except for the skaven/undead all dirty player team. It's sick, really sick. Fouling is great the way it is right now. It's a tactical decision you make to get rid of the big threats. IGMEOY makes it worthwhile to not reply in kind. The strength teams knock people over enough as it is, and the ag teams don't need another source of SPPs. Fouling is good to get rid of a pesky AV9 opponent that is giving you a headache. You shouldn't get SPPs for that, you've already gotten enough of an advantage.

On 'poths: The decision to not heal a SI'd lineman in turn two because you want to save the 'poth is important. That you saved your blitzer from death in the second half because of your foresight, or wasted the 'poth and didn't need it at all later and should have used it on the lineman is also cool. If anything, making the poth never fail is my only request here. But then again, that's life, sometimes you roll a one and your star blitzer dies anyway.

On Bashy teams: If you can't beat dwarfs with wood elfs in a straight TR match, play dwarfs. AV 7 teams play different than AV8 ones. You need finesse and specialized skills. You can do it though. I think the teams are balanced, for the most part. I've seen some coaches lose two or three players in one game, and have others MNG, but this is more the exception than the rule. And that's how bashy teams keep ag teams in check in a league. There's a metagame going on there. If the whole league is bashy, then playing woodies might be tougher than if the leage is mixed.

On TR differential: the handicap table should be changed, but if the playing field were perfectly levelled, all other arguments about SPPs, aging, and whatnot would be moot. There'd be no reward for advancing your team. Just keep playing the same TR100 team you started with, and get lots of handicaps to level the playing field. A 100 point TR differential should mean that one team is heavily favored, and the other team is a struggling underdog.

On special play cards: they're fun if you're not playing a too serious game, but in one breath Toby said: "the less luck in the game the better", and in another he wants the sp cards back. Those cards were luck-central. How many games have I won because I had "Injury Time"? At least three, actually. You play a lot differently when you know you'll have another turn at the end of the half.

[Toby]

On Ageing:
I think ageing is the complete wrong word for the game mechanic it is should be. Namely, preventing players from getting to powerful. If it was "age" it should be linked to "time".

My "Starplayer Handicap Roll" suggestion stands. Improvement + Handicap or no Improvement at all.

On Player "Turnover":
That should happen on pitch by fouls and hard hitting. Make mighty Blow +1/+1, allow Mighty Blow on fouls.

On Fouls:
I want to see the risk to get banned increased with every foul. Remove "Eye on You". Simply make the risk to get sent off +1 for every consecutive foul, and reset to 0 once a player is sent off.
Allow Mighty Blow on fouls. I want to see enemy Blitzes sent of because they were provoced into a foul like in the real world. Reward the risk of bbeing sent off with 2 Casualty SPP because i repeat it: Hitting Players need those SPP.

On Money:
Make Retired Players cost 50%. A dead Wardancer costs 120K to replace, an Retired one only 60k.

Generaly, ther should be more injuries, more replaced players, less skills.
To achive that you need more SPP, more money, more Injuries.

[Grumbledook]

hitting players don't need those spp, i have never had a problem with them getting spp, sure its slow but so what

on pitch injuries also tend not to tackle the problem and target the weaker players, no one puts their star players on the los so their opponent can hit them, unless of course their star players are strong bashing players

there are allready a fair few injuries in the game, its just that they happen to linemen/unskilled/injured players, increasing on pitch injuries will work more to splitting the stars/unskilled mix of teams than star turnover and continual player building way of things

[narkotic]

On Player "Turnover" That should happen on pitch by fouls and hard hitting.

The problem is we're not playing Warhammer or 40K here with anonymous players/troops which don't matter if they die or not. In league games or any match which is not a one-shot match, people build up their players and get accustomed to them. Yes, call it an emotional bond like it's your team and your players with memories associated to them. It's hard enough to get one of your favourites killed or maimed by a block or aging, but if you leave the turnover of good players to fouls only, you will get a very aggressive and revengeful mood in most of the BB matches. If your star ages, you blame the dices, but if your opponent fouls your star to death bc he gets SPP for that and there is no other way to get them out of existence, then BB will turn into (personal) warfare. Like: "Hey dude, my goal for today is not winning but to kill your best player as you did with me last month., remember?"

[BlanchPrez]

Okay, I've decided to break a personal rule, and answer one of Toby's posts. Let me just start by saying that Toby, you've actually brought up some decent points this time.

1. Ageing
Let me first say I absoulutely support the Idea of players developing in a career-curve, that takes them up, reaches a ceiling and then starts to drop. However linking the handicap aspect to the positive action of collecting starplayer points is a huge fun spoiler and must be changed asap. I would rather see the number of Starplayer points required to reach the next level increased then players getting penalized for scoring. My quick fix suggestion would be to allow coaches to choose between applying the ageing effect OR losing the starplayer roll, similar to allowing a normal skill on a starplayer roll to avoid a player being renderd useless by collecting points.

Okay, I honestly don't have much experience with the ageing system in action. However, I don't really have a problem with the rules as they are written, but that opinion might change when I actually get a player that ages.

2. Casualties
Fouling needs to earn SPP and so does pushed into the crowd casualties. Blocking players need these starplayer points. If coaches are supposed to retire players from time to time, then there must be enough starplayer points to collect even for non scoring players and teams.

I don't think I could disagree more strongly. There is no reason that I can think of for players to earn SPP's for fouling. I like the way fouling works the way it does now. Currently, the player on a team with the most SPP's will be the guy that makes the most TD's. Allowing SPP's for fouls would change that, and make it the guy with Dirty Player. Might not be 100% true, but thats my gut feeling.

3. Apothecary
They should be allowed at any time to bring back any player from the dead and injured box. Including Niggling Injury missing players. It should be a tactical choice what player to bring back, not a poker game.

Again, I disagree. I like the idea that the Apoth is random. Sometimes, a wound is just too great to heal. Other times, it might just be a splinter. The die-roll reflects that, in my opinion.

3. Handicap Table
Right now ther is absolutely no reason to play powerful opponents with a weaker team. On the contrary your team is likely to be irradiated. This is a major, major flaw of LRB.

Not sure if I agree with your basic assumption that a new handicap table will give more reason to play a higher rated team, but I do agree that a new handicap table should be introduced.

4. Magic Helmet.
Spikes needs to be renamed to "Magic Helmet" and made a General Trait. There must be a way to improve AV7 Linemen. Else we will be stuck in the current situation of Agility Teams avoiding Strength teams at all cost.

Again, I'm not sure I understand your arguement. However, allowing any player to increase it's AV sounds like a good idea, but seems like it might unbalance things. Not sure, though, I'd have to see it in action.

5. Bashing Teams.
All Agility Teams especially Wood Elves need to be significantly cheaper. At least 10K per player position. We have the problem of Agility teams unable to play strength teams because they simply cannot recover from a heavy beating.

I disagree with this. Agility teams (and bashy teams, for that matter) are just fine the way they are. I play a bashy team, and I run into the same risk of getting a heavy beating that an agility team does when I got up against another bashy team. I've seen it happen.

6. Money.
There needs to be more money in the game to replace players. this goes with the "Agility Teams do not Play Bashing Teams Argumentation". More money and more starplayer points, and on the other hand, more retired players due to injuries and ageing.

While more money would be nice, I'm not sure about this. As it is, I can usually get enought money to replace at least a lineman at the end of a match. I think the money table works out just fine. The more I read these rules, the more I agree with someone else on here that said you were a powergamer. These last few statements read as "I want the rules to allow me to make an agility team that will be invulnerable to bashy teams." It shoudn't be that way.

7. Fouling.
I get sick when i read topics on fumble that go like "fouling is unsportsmanlike" or "i play to have fun not to damage my opponent". U whiners go play chess. It's blood bowl, and chaos teams should win BECAUSE they can level the playing field LITERALY. Nobody wants a dead player on any foul, but that has been adressed verry well with the skill rules and the casualty roll. I say: get rid of "got my eye on you", and make players being sent of on a 5 or 6. That allows you 3 fouls before your dirty player is banned in average.

I don't think I've ever read a post that said any of the above things. I could be wrong, but I don't remember them. However, I happen to like IGMEOY. I think it works great in reducing fouling, and makes the choice of fouling more interesting. "Right now, my opponent has IGMEOY. If I foul now, I take it away from him, but I might be able to take out his star blitzer. OTOH, If I don't foul, the next time he does he will most likely lose the fouler. Tough choice."

8. Big Guy.
I simply do not like the "no team reroll thing". This takes the decision to use or not to use a reroll away from the coaches and thus reduces tactic which is a bad thing. In my oppinion Big Guy Players should use team rerolls, and use them a lot. They should suck up all of your team rerolls! That should be the handicap. Rerolls wasted for Bone Head, Always Hungry, Take Root, Of for a Bite. (refering to possibly new versions).

You are right, it does take away a chocie from the coaches. But I don't think it reduces tactics, just changes them. Allowing re-rolls on negatraits is a bad idea, in my opinion. I would much rather lose a RR if it means I get to keep my Treaman this drive.

9. Big Guy Balance.
Then make them ST4. Instead of first designing them to be intentionally to powerful and then trying to make them crap by force, soften them basically. The "nega-traits" or handicaps need to be revised. Bone Head is good, the new Take Root is good, Really stupid is already almost to hard because troll < ogre, but ok if ogre acces is limited, perspective will change. The Wild animal must always move first makes wild animals turn Blood Bowl into a game of Luck, not Skill, especially with the current no team reroll thing. Luck should be reduced in Blood Bowl where it is possible, not increased.

I'm not sure I agree with this solution. There are already several St. 4 players on teams that have no negatraits. Making big guys St. 4 WITH negatraits just doesn't seem like the proper solution to me. Revising the negatraits seems better to me, but again, I don't have much experience with LRB big guys as of yet. However, as far as the solutions presented on this board, I am partial to the idea of Big Guys taking up a positional slot. It really changes the decision from a no-brainer to a "must think about this."

10. The Cards.
They were fun. There need to be new cards, and fewer cards, but cards. Random Events should be there, Dirty Tricks could be purcased much the same way as Team Rerolls, at double their cost. Magic Items should be part of the "new secret weapons system".

I think a revised handicap table will do the same thing the cards did. I personally don't want to see a game won because I got a lucky draw.

11. New Secret Weapons.
The poisioned dagger has the potential of being way to powerful.

Don't have those rules in front of me, so I really can't commetnt.

12. Starplayers.
There should be new Starplayers that are based on LRB, with racial characteristics and without secret weapons. their price should be their freebooting price (like thrud), and the confusing "one of" line must go. Nobody creates a blood bowl team to play using the "vanilla" one off rules, and if, a Starplayer is nonsense anyways. You know that i would vote for the OPTION to buy Stars permanetly, but that must have a significant drawback. On stars, I would agree to disallow them the use of team rerolls, that goes well with the attitude i expect a star to have. If the current starplayers would have no SW, but RC, cost full price to sign up permanently, and were not allowed to use team rerolls, they would be way more balanced. To solve the problem of some stars being better than others I repetetly suggested to make them start with a certain amount of Starplayer Points, so that Griff Oberwald starts with 200 SPP and hurts your team rating, while Prince Moranion starts with 20 and has lome potential of beeing worth his price some day.

I agree that there should be more Stars for all the various races, but I'm nto sure about the rest of this. I personally like developing my own stars over time, rather than starting with one, or even freebooting one.

Well, that's really all I have for now.

Chris

[wesleytj]

sorry but I am very against...

This will also be taken by Strenght based teams.... AV10 Black Orcs anyone ???

I'd really hate those.

That'd be fine by me. Black orcs get skills real slow, so giving one AV10 means he wouldn't get something like block or mighty blow. Sure he's hard to hurt, but he won't hurt anybody else either.

[wesleytj]

On Player "Turnover" That should happen on pitch by fouls and hard hitting.

The problem is we're not playing Warhammer or 40K here with anonymous players/troops which don't matter if they die or not. In league games or any match which is not a one-shot match, people build up their players and get accustomed to them. Yes, call it an emotional bond like it's your team and your players with memories associated to them. It's hard enough to get one of your favourites killed or maimed by a block or aging, but if you leave the turnover of good players to fouls only, you will get a very aggressive and revengeful mood in most of the BB matches. If your star ages, you blame the dices, but if your opponent fouls your star to death bc he gets SPP for that and there is no other way to get them out of existence, then BB will turn into (personal) warfare. Like: "Hey dude, my goal for today is not winning but to kill your best player as you did with me last month., remember?"

I disagree completely. I'd much rather see my guys do down in a blaze of glory, dying while trying to make that game-winning touchdown, than to be retired because he developed his 4th niggler. That makes those stories, and those "emotional bonds" that much better. Some of my best BB stories I remember years later are about my best players dying. Sometimes it's by fouling, sometimes being pushed into the crowd, other times it's just failing a gfi.

I still remember my first ever BB game, I lost because my dark elf lineman failed a gfi on the last turn INTO THE END ZONE to tie the game, and he DIED. Nobody touched him, just 1, rr, 1, and down he went....DEAD. To this day I tell every new coach I teach the game to that story, it always makes them feel better, and helps them learn early on that odds and probabilities in BB don't always seem to pan out mathematically.

People do not play the style of match you're referring to at the end very frequently at all, and if they do, they almost invariably lose as they lose sight of the actual goals of the game and play very poorly. Most coaches accept player death (even their stars) as a part of the game, and they go on. It's been said so much its cliched by now, but it's cliched because it's true: It's called "BLOOD bowl" people!

[dakkakhan]

Haar wrote:

But, OTOH, you've gotta control those uber-players, and without aging, the money fix isn't enough. The decreasing income per game needs to go hand in hand with a need for new players, which might only come through aging. Some of my stars are very hard to hurt, and even if they were, that's what 'poths are for. So without aging, there isn't enough turnover of the big star players.

I disagree with you Haar. You don't need star turnover. Player turnover by itself will limit how good each player gets. For example, if your powerful witch elf were the only player with a skill on your team she'd be dead meat. The aging system doesn't need to target the powerful players. The money crunch comes in when you are fielding 8 players plus your one powerful one, and because she has so damn many SPP's you aren't making any money, then what? What happens when 3 of those 8 regular players have niggles? Why target her for scoring TD's? You can leave her alone and still the team will be faced with tough decisions.

Sticking with the same example, with or without skills, you have to do something in order to drop your TR so you can start making money again, and for the sake of the team, ie you can get rid of one player or for the same drop in TR you can get rid of two others...it allows it to be your decision as the coach.

I think the goal of the aging system is to limit how powerful a team can get, not limit any one player. You should be able to have one uber-player and 10 scrubs with no problem, but when you have 11 uber-players you start having trouble, and rosters of 16 uberplayers are a thing of the past.

I personally feel the aging system does work, in that by targeting SPP's you are meeting the first requirement, limiting a team's development, but Aging is less than desireable because of the penalty to, what up until now was the total object of the game, to successfully do things and gain SPP's.