Do Dwarves even need a big guy?

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:16 am

I think they need to weed out the oger from more teams, AND make boneheaded more negative.

For example, when he rolls bonheaded he wanders away. Roll a d6 and a scater dice and he has to go that many spaces in that direction (making blocks and dodges as nessicary).

Or make it so he can not be assisted or give assists to other players ever.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:45 am

GalakStarscraper wrote:Sorry Snots ... Bleh ...

Galak

That's the best you could come up with? Really sad. For the record, that's how I feel about most of what you're saying now. I don't think the changes to Big Guys that you say they're proposing are good enough. A step in the right direction, maybe. If the powers that be are going to make a groundbreaking change, do it right.

Bleh to you. Get over yourself.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:45 am

Instead of removing the Ogre's, Trolls, Treemen, and Minotaurs should be upgraded.

The CHOICE between several availiable Big Guys should be TACTICAL, STRATEGICAL, and HARD.

"Bone Head" and "Take Root" are widely considered as acceptable handicaps. Ease "Wild Animal" and "Really Stupid" to be the same.

I, for my part, do not get the point of not allowing Big Guys to use Team Rerolls. I have never ever played or coached a team that had 8 Team Rerolls availiable and could waste them. My experience is on the contrary that Team Rerolls are always in short supply. In the Blood Bowl gaming I have seen, Big Guys BLOCK, GET BLOCKED, or THROW people. If a team needs to sacrifice a Team Reroll early during their turn for a Block, they are off bad enought already. While there is no reason to limit a Throw Teammate scoring chance even further, its still way harder than a passing play. From a strategy gaming point of view, the fact that using an expensive, powerful player brings you the risk of a TURNOVER that could cost you the game is beyond my understanding.

I don't know if you remember the introduction to the "extra Rules" in LRB. It says all of the following is COMPLETELY optional, both coaches have to agree to use the following rules in LRB...

I suggest to play the "Big Guy" Racial Characteristic in the following way:

Big Guy's are not allowed to use Team Rerolls unless both coaches have agreed otherwise before the match has started.

That way, if both teams field a Big Guy they may take full advantage of their players. If a teams lacks their own Big Guy, but faces a team that fields one, they can make it harder for them to use their monster.

I know I am going to be flamed, feel free to do so...

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:25 am

Toby wrote:
"Bone Head" and "Take Root" are widely considered as acceptable handicaps. Ease "Wild Animal" and "Really Stupid" to be the same.

Hella no. If anything WA is too easy to get around as it is.
The simple answer is that while Ogres may fit fluff wise on the Orc roster, Trolls do so better. Chaos Dwarfs probably have the same thing with Minos (they're meant to be bull worshippers after all).

I'd prefer that if a team - with the exception of Chaos - wants a big guy they have a single choice.

And as for "players won't understand it" Galak...
How hard is a table with the columns "team", "allowed big guy" and "takes place of" to understand?
That is in no way a valid argument against a system which makes having a big guy or not a much deeper issue than it is with him knocking off benchwarming lineman number 6 from the roster.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu May 01, 2003 6:38 am

Oh then all of the Discussion about Wild Animal, that it makes Rat Ogres useless and that its so abusive because you can force your opponents into turnovers is just my imagination.

And so is the fact that Galak lists the issue un his BBRC 2K3 hotlist.

Bann all big guys or make all Big Guys playable.
I played 3rd where you could have players with +5 to Injury AND armour, now that screwed the game. A single ST5 Guy without Block and without acces to team rerolls makes me roll on the floor laughing.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:09 am

For the Deathroller to be a good replacement or compensation or whatever, for an Ogre I think it should once again be a permanent adittion to a team. Sure an ogre is three times as expensive as a Deathroller at 40000 gps, but you get so much more for it;

- An ogre actually increases avarage movement of a Dwarf team.
- An ogre gains experience and with that the invaluable "Block" skill, which all blocking dudes need
- An ogre is a permanent addition; always ready for use (unless niggled/missing next match)
- An ogre isn't taken out immediately when it falls over
- An ogre doesn't have a penalty roll

And more; now I'm not saying that a Deathroller should be able to get up after falling over and I'm not saying that it should loose the penalty roll either, but I do think a Deathroller should not be confiscated by a ref, and a system in which earning experience is possible should also really help (or just get it block; because in the BG arms race now occurring on our pitches, block is what you really need!)

And I know Deathrollers have pros too but IMO the pros don't make it compared to the contras.

BTW Why do Fanatic publications constantly show the Deathroller without Stand Firm Trait?

R

Talafar · Post by **Talafar** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:56 am

Galak: you still havent countered the fact that the bonus of Big Guys gives some teams a better roster then others. They might be costly and have negative traits, but they are still far better then the average linesman. Even a WA Rat ogre is a better reserve then a linerat...

Toby: The reason Big guys cannot use team re-rolls is that it would make them too good. They are already very scary already, and the small measure of unrealibiliy which prevents you re-rolling a bad block, is a big part of trying to balance them.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:58 am

Talafar wrote:Even a WA Rat ogre is a better reserve then a linerat...

Or even better said:

3 linerats and a Rat Ogre is better to have as reserves than four linerats, because it means less of the same and thus more versatility!!!

R

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Thu May 01, 2003 9:59 am

@Toby

Inconsistency?

You want to get rid of broken Star Playerts but think Non-Ogre Big guys should be upgraded and RR for Big Guys should be allowed???

And banning all BGs is not a solution either.

everyman · Post by **everyman** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:47 am

I don't know about the rest of you, but it just feels cool to set up your team and have a hulking Big Guy staring down your opponent. It just feels good in a tangible way!

I can't think of any good reason to allow Big Guys to use RRs, although the Leader exception feels odd in my mind. I'm not opposed to having negative traits, it makes decision making alot more interesting IMO. I enjoy the fact that if I take my Blitz action with my Ogre that he just might do nothing instead!

Teams like the Skaven and the Lizardmen are character-enhanced by their unique Big Guy. More of that wouldn't be bad, and some of the newer (and experimental) teams might feel a little bit more character-full if they had a unique Big Guy.

All this being said, I don't think any particular configuration is "unfair", because you can consider the Big Guy rules and Big Guy access when selecting your team!

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu May 01, 2003 10:49 am

everyman wrote:All this being said, I don't think any particular configuration is "unfair", because you can consider the Big Guy rules and Big Guy access when selecting your team!

In that case we should all play Chaos Pact if our league allows us or Orcs or Chaos else because they have the best BG selection.
Yours is not a good argument.

R

Ithilkir · Post by **Ithilkir** » Thu May 01, 2003 11:19 am

Toby wrote:I played 3rd where you could have players with +5 to Injury AND armour, now that screwed the game. A single ST5 Guy without Block and without acces to team rerolls makes me roll on the floor laughing.

Errrr. how exactly? You could only have one skill modifying a dice roll in 3rd edition.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:41 pm

Talafar wrote:Even a WA Rat ogre is a better reserve then a linerat...

No, he's not. A linerat won't spend the entire match on the ground with you afraid to stand him up.

Wild Animal is negative enough to balance out the star. Many a coach against me has lost several turns from improperly using a WA.

Galak

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:45 pm

Then again, when I need some muscle I'd rather have a Rat Ogre than a Linerat, it gives you more options! Futhermore, I don't think you'll need 4 reserves in most matches (though with Skaven you may)

R

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Thu May 01, 2003 12:46 pm

Maybe Skaven is a bad example, but especially when looking at the race it all started about; I'd rather have 3 Longbeards plus an Ogre reserve than just 4 Longbeards!

R