Gamesmanship

[Al the Rat]

I've just finished a fun but infuriating night of Blood Bowl games that has resulted in one of my league mates dropping out. His reasons are an unbroken losing streak since anyone can remember, with not even a fast enough growth in SPP to aid team development to make future wins more likely. Now while these reasons are plausible I get the feeling that what depresses him most is the gamesmanship displayed by the league leader.

My reason for posting though is mainly to find out what other players think gamesmanship, unsporting play or general low down dirty tricks. Personally I think that putting the boot in for the sake of it is pretty low especially when combined with taunting if death or serious injury occurs. Playing the man and not the ball annoys me, particularly when an open scoring chance is available. Fair enough these are valid strategies within the letter of the rules, but as far as I'm concerned a bad winner is far worse than bad loser.

Edit: before I get accusations of being a bad loser, I'll just say I played 2, won 1 (2-1, 5-0 cas all BH strangely). The game I lost started with a death on the first block, it pretty much set the tone!

[Grumbledook]

Yer think the term 'bad winner' is applicable here as well. I hate playing people with bad gamesmanship, they also seem to be oblivious that they are doing it as well. It can really ruin the game. I don't mind losing to someone if they played well and they deserved it, but it feel horrable to lose to someone who is just obnoxious. If you lose you have every right to feel a bit pissed, I get wound up when its just the dice that loses the game, not the odd roll but everything you try seems to male chicken up. Had a match earlier like this, just felt frustrated at the end with the amount of 1s i rolled, but I don't begrude my opponent because he played well and fairly. I have to agree though a bad winner just sucks!

[Lucien Swift]

you just have to remember one thing, no one is entitled or required to play in your league... if there are players who make it unfun for everyone else, ask them to leave, if there is one guy who doesn't play dirty, don't be surprised when he leaves...

...bloodbowl, like most games, is most fun when played by people who are friends in teh first place, a gathering of total strangers with varied outlooks on sportsmanship and enjoyment is a recipe for disaster... a league of 4 is more often than not far more satisfying than a league of 30...

[JackDragna]

I'm not a big fan of people who taunt exessively, either. I, however, have to admit to being someone who often 'plays the man instead of the ball' and kicks teams down when I've got the numerical advantage. This game is 70% gladitorial contest and 30% team sport. If I can get star player points by stalling the drive, running my players up to yours and grinding them into the dust, I'll do it all the time. To me, if you can't somehow evade that, it's a failing of the team just as the inability to stop someone from scoring is a failing. Nobody complains about people scoring TD's, ergo, nobody should complain when their team is overwhelmed and used as a tackling dummy.

[Joaquim]

This is a violent world... as is BB!!... playing slow/hitting teams may be... boring, and... bad for health... as these teams allways play the man, not the ball, and count turns for half and game end....
But all that is just part of the game: in all leagues should be a team like this just to check elves player growth....

The worst thing, for me, is some kind of lawers, wich allways try to bend the rules to suit them team, or LCs wich pick House/extra rules to suit theirs teams - and don't give good advice on rules to rockiee players...
this for me is even worst than "rules lawers", because LCs have responsabilities, more if there are new players!!!

[Khrage]

I hate bad winners and I hate the guys who kick the other guy just to do it. Nothing gives me more pleasure than ripping somebody apart who brags or talks crap during a game. Bad winners are just bad losers who wised up or got lucky. Oh and talking crap about killing or SI'ing a player right after you did it is BS. It is a friendly game, and screwing your opponent over with a death is bad enough without rubbing it in afterwards. Hell, it was a random die roll, who is he to take credit for it? My favorite result on the Injury table (both giving and recieving) is Badly Hurt. Take him out of the game and keep him there, but let him be ready for the next opponent.

Not to say that I won't talk crap before the game about beating and killing his players, but that is all pregame hype that stops when the dice roll.

The worst beating I ever dished out was a 5-0 victory over a skaven team. I was using Orcs. I butchered him from the get go, and of the 8 casualties I caused, 7 were Badly Hurts. I love that kind of a situation. I get my fun in and don't screw him over for his next game. Right after the game we went over to a job fair. No hurt feelings on either side.

[vorner23]

You know I've discovered the opposite!

That being - most people I play against are very gracious when they win but some are very childish when they lose! We are talking grown adults here too!

Either way, I find it strange. I often play Halflings which lets face it can win.... but can also lose horrendously. And frankly I don't really mind that much. A game is a game. There always has to be a loser... if people can't handle it then its really time to find a non competitive sport like.....

knitting.

[Zombie]

It's perfectly all right to play the man instead of the ball. That's a big part of what the game is about. I used to always play the ball (less so now that i play bashing teams, but the ball is still my #1 priority). However, the best games i can remember were against a guy who had the opposite playing style and always played the man. The clash of the styles made for extremely interesting games, and the competition was good because it was about 50-50.

Now, taunting is another thing. But you must realize that there are leagues (not mine) where if you don't taunt all game, you're not a real player. That's more part of the local culture than anything.

[Dave]

I must admit that it would depend on which player is down. If it's a one turner or a major blocker (rat ogre etc.) I'd try to hit him where it hurts. For these I hope for kills.

In the case of other players I don't really mind. Hing TR teams with lotsa money AND players AND RR may make me a bit more bloodthirsty as well.

Usually I don't hurt just for the hitting.

Still some matches are different from others. I recently played a game where my Norse utterly destroyed my opponent's Amazon team. Any block would come up with an opponent down result and any Armour roll was something like 10 or 11.

When this happens you can't help but do some injuries. I find those 'carnage' matches and matches where you can't seem to be able to put a dent in a buttercup cancel eachother out, sort of

[Grumbledook]

There is taunting and the odd little quip, but some players are down right obnoxious. I think this was the situation Al was describing. This guy had lost loads of games and hardly had any spp, its not like his team was overly competative anyway. It seems the league leader cares little about how much fun the opponent is having and his main concern is just to win at all costs. If I am playing someone who is new or is just having really bad luck and needs a break, I will try to go easy on him. This doesn't mean I am going to hand him a win, thats just patronising (and I hate to lose) I would play my normal game, get a numerical advantage, but you can stop here, there is no need to carry on fouling and wrecking his team up even more. Games are meant to be fun, once you've taken that away no one is the winner.

[Ghost of Pariah]

We taunt each other in my league. Actually, if an outsider were to view our league he would think that we are the biggest bunch of juveniles in the world. We taunt and torment, we laugh at the misfortune of other coaches, we use low down distractionary tactics (I.E. setting the table so your opponent is facing the TV) we even throw tantrums and fling dice.

The thing is that we are all very old friends or blood relation. We behave that way with each other normally. When new people join we tend to take it easy until we are sure they can take the taunts and abuse.

As for the "stick the boot in" style of play...we find it's self regulating around here. Most of the time, if someone thrashes a team for several turns just for the hell of it, that coach will get repaid in kind.

[sean newboy]

Al, here in america we have pool sharks. They sucker supposedly good people into "friendly" money games and steal their shirts. TBB has many good players in your area. Perhaps u need to enlist 1 or more of them to teach this rogue a lesson. The league i played in previously had such a coach, no one was sorry to see him leave.

[DoubleSkulls]

IMO The best argument for not allowing SPPs is that it discourages vindictive fouling - if you want to foul go ahead and do it, but for tactical reasons not strategic ones.

Ian

[Al the Rat]

Interesting responses. I realise that it sounds petty to complain about players that play the man, and not the ball. I do this myself when I see tactical advantage to it, opening passing lanes, dodgeing routes etc. and if the guy in the way happens to be down already fouling is fairplay. But when you have control of the ball the downed player is a rookie of whatever position and is no threat to anyone going for a casualty is just vindictive, which is against the spirit of playing games as far as I'm concerned.

I suppose the thing that pisses me off most is that the player in question is also the LC, and seems to have no comprehension that the other players are here to have fun, and not see their carefully crafted teams broken, torn up and thrown back in their faces. It's also difficult because we are such a small league made up of old friends.

Anyway enough of me whingeing about one particular player waht I would be more interested in is what other people consider gamesmanship and unsportsmanlike behave. For example, is it the done thing to scream "1" or "double skull" every time the opponent rolls the dice. Is it ok to mark out your moves using dice and whatever other markers are around. Personally I find both of these annoying, the former childish and the latter just slows play down.

[Mestari]

Playing the man, as long as we're talking about the players on pitch, is perfectly ok.
But when you're playing the man standing on the other side of the desk it's not. This game is about fun, not about humiliating others.
It's too bad if someone can't win, but if his team is completely unable to compete, then attempting to crush his team is simply not ok. In that case even strength teams should concentrate on playing the ball, instead of using the asymmetric situation to crush the opponent.
And while his at it, why not let the other team score a TD too? As members of a league everyone has some responsibility over the enjoyment of other coaches.

Just act overconfident and do some stupid moves to give him a decent shot at scoring. Give him a good feeling even if you win. Why not? Do you feel proud if you trash a 8-player team 5-0TD and 8-0cas? I wouldn't. If you do the same to an even opponent, then you should feel proud. How does it hurt you if you let the poor bugger have something to brag about too?
Think about it - even if he lost, he could think that he managed to score against superior odds and be happy about it. In most cases you lose nothing if you give that to him.

This applies to rookies as well - no point in teaching the newcomer to play by crushing him utterly.

About taunting:
As long as there's humour involved, or it's between friends, everythings ok. That's part of the game - part of the role you play as a coach. Triple-skull dances, cheering etc. is ok.

But simple malevolent taunting aimed at humiliating the other coach... can some people really be that appalling?