Big guys, traits, rerolls, and the like

[SgtCaples]

I saw that Galak had listed some points about Big Guys in the rules review agenda and wanted to open a discussion up about them in general.
In the agenda it mentions no longer calling them ally's and instead mentioning that with "Big Guy" as a trait, part of the trait would be an inability to use team rerolls.
I don't think "big guy" even needs to be a trait, and I think they should be able (at least in some cases) to use team rerolls. I think that some of the bog guys should be put directly into the team rosters. The RO is only useable by a skaven team so why is it an ally? Especially considering the fluff around rat ogres in WHFB.
I don't think it should be assumed that the presence of a big guy is equal to him having been "hired" (as in a mercenary playing because he is paid to do so) but rather think of them as being big dumb creatures who mostly play because they like it, or in the case of a troll because the infinitly more intelligent goblins tell them to.
For better or for worse, and regardless of how they got there, a big guy is still a member of the team who presumably practices with the team and should have all of the benefits of membership.
I still think that star players that get freebooted should be denied the use of re-rolls as they are probably only showing up just in time for the game and too important to practice with the bunch of amateurs on the team.

[Trambi]

No rerolls for Freebooters (including Star players) I agree !

[Darkson]

Did you know you've posted this twice? You might want to delete the 2nd one so people only vote on this one (I've voted on the other).

[Deathwing]

Cleared up the other one, so you might want to vote again on this one.

[Darkson]

Already have done. (Gone for "bit of both").

[SgtCaples]

I didn't intend to post it twice. It hung up and froze just after I hit post the first time and then I didn't see it in the forum so I reposted it. My bad

[Ghost of Pariah]

ONe thing to keep in mind Sarge is that allowing big guys to use rerolls will let ogres and troll pretty much activate every turn. Also the Minos and the RO's are gonna have alot more control over their negative skill.

Aside from that they belong on the roster.

[SgtCaples]

That is exactly why I think it would be good. If wanted to burn your rerolls on keeping your ogre/troll playing, that should be up to you. Even then, for goblin and halfling teams, they could suffer since you can only use one team reroll per turn and they will usually have two big guys.
As for the mino and RO, as it stands, for 130K GP, you get a rat ogre who has to go first, has to throw a block, has to follow up, has to throw a second block, can't have assists, can't give assists, and can't use any re-rolls. The ONLY thing that would make me consider taking one ever again, would be either getting to use re-rolls, or the return of the "roll a double, GET RID of a trait" rule. Even then it would be pretty questionable.
I think in general thatthe big guys have been over-penalised and that especially in the case of the RO, troll, and mino this is true.

[Mestari]

I actually like the current situation where they are not allowed to use rerolls. The uncertainty nicely balances out their strength.

Which reminds me: remove MB from Khemri mummies - the best "big guy" player currently in existence!

[Al the Rat]

A thought occurring ... pretty ill formed as yet ... but occurring nevertheless. If big guys are not considered to be a part of the team in the sense of training and working together and so cannot use team re-rolls, why should a big guy failure cause a team turnover?

I can see some sort of sense in a team leaving the big guy to his devices ignoring him whilst he distracts the opposition so that the team can make the play. If he falls over surrounded by 6 of the other side so what thats 6 of them not marking the play makers. So why would the team be turned over by this?

[martynq]

That is exactly why I think it would be good. ... The ONLY thing that would make me consider taking one ever again, would be either getting to use re-rolls, or the return of the "roll a double, GET RID of a trait" rule. Even then it would be pretty questionable.
I think in general thatthe big guys have been over-penalised and that especially in the case of the RO, troll, and mino this is true.

SgtCaples, it seems a very common viewpoint that the wild animal negative trait is a bit too powerful, but on the other hand it is being used to rein in a player that would otherwise be very dangerous (the rat ogre has ST5 and AG3 making it a very good player). On the whole, we see where you are coming from on the Rat Ogre front, but the jury is currently out on the decision.

Having said that, it is supposed to be a bit of a risk taking a Big Guy on your team. Without the penalties that come with the negative traits and the inability to use re-rolls, we will rapidly enter a state of increasing arms-race where the only teams that are taken are those with access to the biggest baddest monsters who can create the most damage. Especially now Dauntless is a trait, teams without access to ST4 or ST5 players would suffer in such a situation.

Balance is the key. If big guys can lose their negative skills and can use re-rolls, who is going to play a team that can't take an ogre?

Cheers,
Martyn

[DoubleSkulls]

Because otherwise you'd exploit the fact they can't turnover to try high risk, high reward plays with them. This would be abusive.

I think the current mechanism works fine - except for WA.

[SgtCaples]

Because otherwise you'd exploit the fact they can't turnover to try high risk, high reward plays with them. This would be abusive.

I think the current mechanism works fine - except for WA.

The WA is the whole reason that I think an RO should be able to use rerolls. How would it be "abusive" for himn to be able to reroll his block dice like any other player. He still has next to no options as he must block, must follow up, can't get assists, and can't give assists. I suppose if WA were toned down, it might not be as big a deal but I don't think it would be abusive to be able to prevent a turnover with a reroll, that is what they are for after all. The whole point of having a reroll is to be able to avoid catastrophe, and your RO rolling a double skull when your gutter runner is set to score, is a catastrophe.

[Al the Rat]

I think Ian was answering my question about why a failed big guy action that is unable to be team re-rolled should cause a turnover. Abusive high risk play with big guy is possible if there is no risk of turnover, though to be honest I was more contemplating it in relation to WAs. The WA would still be forced to block or blitz as they are now as the first move of the turn. They would still be tactically limited in this way, so I'm not sure how much abusive high risk play could take place with WAs. The range of options available to other big guys simply aren't present with WAs. Though I accept a more suitable solution to WAs could be found.

[Deathwing]

The problem is with the WA mechanism rather than BGs and TRR.
It's generally accepted wisdom that WAs take some nuturing and will by their very nature cost you games early in their career. Leave them off the field on longer drives. Get them on when there's a 'dead' turn. Try using them only on D in a sweeper role. Mollycoddle them until they Block. Once they get that 6SPP they become more effective, and then take Pro at 16 which goes a long way to countering the biggest drawback of WA, i.e. the early turnover situation.
I'm not saying that WA doesn't need looking at, just that in many ways it's short term pain for long term gain. Try and minimise the self-inflicted damage as much as possible in the early stages.