Dwarves vs Amazons

[Princelucianus]

I must admitt, I only thought about it now that I know I have to play a dwarven team and they have a 100 point more teamrating than my amazons.

Just a general thought but, the advantage of amazons is ''dodge''. when they play dwarves, that advantage is gone, so I think it's broken somehow.....

Lucy

[grep-v]

8-10 months ago I played ~160 TR Amazons with my ~220 TR Dwarves in MY Stadium (Astrogranite, Traps, some more House rules). I managed to lose 0-2 (IIRC) with 3-4 Cas.
My opponent failed to dodge exactly 3 times throughout the whole game.

But generally I'd assume that Dwarves with a superior team rating smash Amazons almost always.

[Redfang]

I think Dwarves will have a larger chance of winning than the amazons, but to really call it broken...

Amazons will have a lot better time against other teams than the Dwarves.

Furthermore this problem is a little neutralised later on in a league, when other teams also get more tacklers and the ladies gain some interesting skills themselves.

(PS Voted Dwarfs will smash the ladies; I have to, it's a Dwarven pride thingy)

[Asmodan]

I have played twice with dwarves against my friends Amazons.
The first time both had TR 100 and i won 1-0 without making a single casuality.
The second time i had 40 better in TR and i did indeed crush his players, but could only make a 1-1 as it took to long time to injure his player and get to the EZ.

So talking from experience, amazons vs dwarves is not broken, largly because only longbeards have tackle, and that leaves you with 6-7 players without, making them no better than any other team to knock them down.

Asmodan

[Princelucianus]

I know other teams will get tackle later on as well, but the real strength of the ladies is that they are able to withstand most blocks or dodge away when facing a superior oponent. Agaisnt the dwarves, this is simply not the case (although they can still block there way out, but theier speed isn't too great either and dwarves later on get more skills to easily destroy the ladies armour).

My thoughts on this subject....

Lucy

[Heiper]

If a team is bad against one team doesn't mean its broken IMO. Almost any team will have problems against someone with 100 more TR.

Dwarfs have tackle that will get rid of the dodge, thats right. But what about all the teams that dwarfs meet that don't have dodge so they can't use Tackle? Are they broken too then? No in my book.

Amazon teams are pretty good from what I've experienced, havn't played against them with my Dwarfs yet, but my Woodelfs had some problems with them (young woodelf team) even with superior speed. Those out-of-the-pack Block/Dodge Blitzers are super good, and you get Re-Rolls for 40k. So even against teams with tackle you should have enough Re-Rolls to avoid falling down that often. But as I've said, havn't played them with my Dwarfs yet, but even if they are not that good against one team, doesn't mean they are broken. At least thats how I feel.

[Deathwing]

I agree.
Given equal-ish TR, coaching ability and luck, I'd expect a Dwarf team to beat an Amazon team more often than not.
Not that 'Zons can't beat Dwarfs, but Dwarfs are certainly the nemesis.
I'm interested in how Zons do against Dwarfs on the tourney scene over the next few months.

[Princelucianus]

Maybe broken was not the right term to use.

But I think you still don't completely understand my point.....
All teams are always (or when they reach higher TR's) on sort of an equal footing. Halflings and goblins will probably hate dwarves as well, because of the tackle, but that's not the point here.
The point is that elves can at least outrun/dodge the dwarves, but the amazons just lost their major skill of the game (when they play dwarves that is). I guess that all teams have an equal chance when playing another team. But when amazons play dwarves then it's no longer equal....

Lucy
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[Heiper]

I see that I misunderstood a bit, sorry about that. I guess no team would have a harder time against an equal TR dwarf team than the Amazons when I look at it a bit more carefull (halflings, gobbos might, but they are fun teams). But I still don't think thats a good enough reason to change anything in a team that already works pretty well. Maybe you would like to get a Big Guy to pound on the Dwarfs?

[Thadrin]

MyDwarfs. Spyke's Amazons. Tulips 2002.
Result? a VERY nervy 1-0 win for the dwarfs, at least in part to Spyke making one collossal gaffe at the end of the first half that spoiled a potential TD.
Admittedly, I was rolling like crap on my armour rolls - I was getting knock downs all over the place but the ladies just weren't dying enough.

Still - Broken? no. The Zon's DO start with 4 Blodge players, and in my experience it guarenteed that when they (they includes Wood Elves and Skaven here) finally do fail a dodge roll they'll be dodging away from a Slayer rather than a Longbeard.

However - I'd send Chet an Email and ask for tips. He seems to be regarded as the Zon guru.

[Princelucianus]

I still don't think thats a good enough reason to change anything in a team that already works pretty well.

I don't want them to change either, I'm just wondering if I should just give up instead of playing .
Amazons and dwarves are both good teams wich shouldn't be changed. But when playing eachother, it's the only combo of opponents which seem rather unfair to me.....

Lucy

[Deathwing]

MyDwarfs. Spyke's Amazons. Tulips 2002.
Result? a VERY nervy 1-0 win for the dwarfs, at least in part to Spyke making one collossal gaffe at the end of the first half that spoiled a potential TD.

You mentioned that the other day in another thread, something about Pass/Hand Off declaration...what happened?

[Sputnik]

I believe that more than often there is some psychology involved!

Some general impressions:
If you think of dwarfs and tackle denying the dodge of your ladies, then also think about which players the dwarfs will probably field: 2 Blitzers, 2 Slayers, maybe one ogre and a runner (or even both), all without tackle...so there are about 5 longbeards left. Most of the time you should't have a problem with your dodge skill and you can also fight back a longbeard on his own. Instead of dodging, block him with one die and see his frustrated face when his beards go down more then once. Of course, with a team having only AV 7 you always need a bit of luck...

I have to play a dwarven team and they have a 100 point more teamrating than my amazons

So I assume there are quite a few longbeards with guard. It this case it of course will get difficult blocking them ..and it's no fun playing against experienced dwarfs anyway, not only with amazons.

Sputnik

[plasmoid]

Hi there,
wipe those tears from your eyes
Just be glad that you aren't playing goblins! Now that is a masacre. ST2 on the gobbos, and no access to block makes for a very bloody match-up.

I know, I've tried it
Martin

[Thadrin]

You mentioned that the other day in another thread, something about Pass/Hand Off declaration...what happened?

As I remember he meant to use both actions to get the ball from his half into my endzone, the "Wood Elf" way. He declared the hand off, got most way through and then realised things would actually have been much easier the other way round, or he'd left himself a square short or something like that anyway.

I do remember that the entire second half was a huge muddle of players - including a couple with Guard - in the middle of the pitch, with the ball flying about all over the place.