For Milo...Nurgle problems

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:04 pm

Milo wrote:What makes the Nurgle team a "Killing machine" more than a normal Chaos team? Is it just the Beast you have a problem with?

The Nurgle beast is a problem but not the only one...however most of the problems do stem from him.

This thing has the ability to move into a crowd of players and stop them in it's tracks while the beast men and rotters pick at those who remain. Escaping his tentacles is a nightmare and makes blocking the ST 4-FA Rotters a Defender's Choice buffet! And the damn thing is so underpriced that they can start with it!!! It's a brainless strategy to park that Nurgle beast on the line and force the opposing coach to stick at least 3 players to it. You can't get away from it if you are an ST 3 team. It's a damn nightmare! If you put more players on the line to deal with the Beast and the Rotters you end up with more players stuck in the tentacles, if you put a minimum of 3 on the line, you get hammered by 2 and 3 dice blocks! You are undermanned no matter what you do. Then to top it off if you do manage to break a ball carrier through you are short on protection and can garauntee a ST 4 blitz coming your way.
That beast needs a total reworking and the beastmen need to be taken off the roster and changed to marauders...(but that can't happen now, can it?)

It's horribly over powered to have a team that can use one big guy to isolate up to 8 players while the rest of the team picks them apart one at a time. Then to put a stumbling block like ST 4 and FA in the way of the ones who do get free is just stuipidly short sight sighted. I've run several PBeM solo games with Nurgle's Rotters vs. Humans and I have yet to see the human team win one. And all this happens with 100 point teams. What happens when that Nurgle Beast gets Piling On and Break Tackle? And the team starts developing Dirty Players?
Not in my league, Pal! A normal chaos team could only achive this much power very rarely and only after alot of development. To start with it is just stupid.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:43 pm

Personally I would just dump an Orc Lineman in front of it and let him deal with it. The rest of my team has got better things to do.

That said, the beast is too good and too cheap anyways.

-Balrog

Dark Lord (retired) · Wed Mar 26, 2003 10:45 pm

One orc lineman against a strength 6/mighty blow/regeration big guy?

How long does that last? 2 turns tops?

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:02 pm

Dark Lord wrote:One orc lineman against a strength 6/mighty blow/regeration big guy?

How long does that last? 2 turns tops?

Depends on how often he breaks armour. An Orc Linemen still has AV 9 - and they have an uncanny toughness about them.

-Balrog

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:09 pm

He doesn't need to break armour to get past an orc lineman. All he needs to do is blitz once and move into the pack or the path of the cage.

The ST 3 no block Orc lineman is nothing but a minor inconvenience. Same as the human lineman in my test games...and the Ogre Blockers that I put in his path in the MBBL. The beast has 2 and 3 dice blocks on everything because he always has a Rotter or 2 around to assist.

And like I said give him break tackle and he can move where ever he pleases.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:46 pm

Maybe make it a bit like WA in that it cn't have assists?

I agree it's overpowered/undercosted.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 8:51 pm

I'd like to it have a cool new ability. Maybe give it some kind of SLIME ability. The WHFB beasts make deadly toxic slime wherever they go. Or give it a Stink Bomb ability.

At the very least get rid of the ST 6 and tentacles combo.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:18 pm

Pariah,

Good points, mostly, although I don't see what the change from Beastmen to Marauders would accomplish, really.

As for the Beast, I have a feeling you may be right. You *are* using the new Tentacles rules and the version of the Beast from Tom Anders' website, right? This one: Nurgle Beast (4/6/1/9 .. 140k .. Mighty Blow, Foul Appearance, Tentacles, Regeneration, Really Stupid, Big Guy)

Just double-checking. Would 4/5/1/9 and a higher price help the beast, in your opinion? Tentacles, FA, and Regeneration really define the beast, since that's what the Beast of Nurgle actually has in not just on the current mini, but on most OOP minis and fluff, too. If it's necessary to change, we could, but if it's possible to keep those three traits but balance him another way, I think that would be preferable.

What if he were both Wild Animal AND Really Stupid? We've never given two negative traits of that level to a Big Guy, but if he's really a problem, that might be another possibility. (And the mandatory block/blitz with no assists might help opposing teams deal with him.)

Milo

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:21 pm

How about taking tentacles off to start with. Let it learn how to use it effectively on the BB pitch. And yes, drop the ST to 5.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:24 pm

I think Wild Animal and Bonehead would be a good thing! Mayeb if you did that he could keep the 6 strength and lower price tag?

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:36 pm

Milo wrote:Pariah,

Good points, mostly, although I don't see what the change from Beastmen to Marauders would accomplish, really.

Thanks...
AV 7 and Block is just a teeny weeny bit easier to take off the pitch than AV 8. Also it lowers the amount of ST 4 block/blitzes that the team can throw on people caught up in tentacles...and last but not least it fits the fluff hella better!

Milo wrote: As for the Beast, I have a feeling you may be right. You *are* using the new Tentacles rules and the version of the Beast from Tom Anders' website, right? This one: Nurgle Beast (4/6/1/9 .. 140k .. Mighty Blow, Foul Appearance, Tentacles, Regeneration, Really Stupid, Big Guy)

I am in the MBBL so yes I am. I have used both and didn't really see much of a differnce.

Milo wrote: Just double-checking. Would 4/5/1/9 and a higher price help the beast, in your opinion? Tentacles, FA, and Regeneration really define the beast, since that's what the Beast of Nurgle actually has in not just on the current mini, but on most OOP minis and fluff, too. If it's necessary to change, we could, but if it's possible to keep those three traits but balance him another way, I think that would be preferable.
Milo wrote:ree with Darkson. Fluff is a silly reason to unbalance a team especially when it's so easy to rewrite fluff. Like D said, "He needs to learn to use them in Blood Bowl." Just because you have arms doesn't mean you can throw a spiral. I think the beast that is listed in the maghazine is what he should look like after a couple skills not as a rookie.

Milo wrote: What if he were both Wild Animal AND Really Stupid? We've never given two negative traits of that level to a Big Guy, but if he's really a problem, that might be another possibility. (And the mandatory block/blitz with no assists might help opposing teams deal with him.)

Milo

I think that's a very good option. Maybe you could lower his ST to 5 and keep the tentacles and give him Wild Animal + Bonehead....or COFAB?

This is the solution I like best because it forces him to block and follow up and thus move around. So he can't be "blitzer velcro" and effectively short hand the other team. Nad this is basically my prob with the team. The beast shorthands the opponent and the rest of the team is already ST 4 and can just clean up.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:15 pm

Pariah wrote: Thanks...
AV 7 and Block is just a teeny weeny bit easier to take off the pitch than AV 8. Also it lowers the amount of ST 4 block/blitzes that the team can throw on people caught up in tentacles...and last but not least it fits the fluff hella better!

Well, that's true, but I'd much rather have one guy with ST4 hitting me than four guys with ST3 and Block. Block and AV7 is easier to deal with defensively, but I think it would make them much tougher offensively, which is not something Chaos needs.

Beastmen follow Nurgle, too, you know. Besides which, you yourself say fluff is a silly reason to write rules in the same posting.

Milo wrote: What if he were both Wild Animal AND Really Stupid? We've never given two negative traits of that level to a Big Guy, but if he's really a problem, that might be another possibility. (And the mandatory block/blitz with no assists might help opposing teams deal with him.)
I think that's a very good option. Maybe you could lower his ST to 5 and keep the tentacles and give him Wild Animal + Bonehead....or COFAB?

This is the solution I like best because it forces him to block and follow up and thus move around. So he can't be "blitzer velcro" and effectively short hand the other team. Nad this is basically my prob with the team. The beast shorthands the opponent and the rest of the team is already ST 4 and can just clean up.

So you'd say WA, Bonehead, and Tentacles and ST5 seems reasonable to you? Should his price be adjusted with that, or is it fine? (Assuming he also has Foul App., Regen, Mighty Blow, and Big Guy?)

Should he get Frenzy like the Rat Ogre and Minotaur, or shall we say that he's too slow (sluglike) to get the second hit, even if he is Wild?

Milo

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:27 pm

Milo wrote:So you'd say WA, Bonehead, and Tentacles and ST5 seems reasonable to you? Should his price be adjusted with that, or is it fine? (Assuming he also has Foul App., Regen, Mighty Blow, and Big Guy?)

Should he get Frenzy like the Rat Ogre and Minotaur, or shall we say that he's too slow (sluglike) to get the second hit, even if he is Wild?

Hmmn. His price? I think if he had both WA and BH he could keep the 130K price tag. Maybe even 120K not sure. The frenzy thing? I could go either way on that. I'd say leave it off but then again it make him more "beastial"

I still say he should have some cool new mutation for "sliming" people.

Pogo · Post by **Pogo** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 3:44 am

Ok, time to throw in my own oar into the water. I've played with the Beast once, and he is too powerful. I think it should be a definte ST decrease on him to 5, and FA, MB, and Regen, in my opinion, all need to stay.

I've always thought of the beast as a spawn, and tent fits right in so well, i am relunctant to have it dropped. So how else can the beast be made weaker? Well, if i know my spawn rules, they move a random amount. So i think his move characteristic should be D6. That will give him problems standing up sometimes, it means any blitz with him will be risky, and getting him into position will be more difficult.

The idea of making a spawn a wild animal really doesn't sit well with me. To me, he isn't crazed, just really slow and stupid, which i think is most characterized by Really Stupid and Big Guy.

Also, I honestly believe that without the apoth, Rotters are worse than normal chaos, because all those beastman are very vunerable to injury and death, so i think that they need something extra to make the team worthwile. (Rotters might be slightly better than normal chaos warriors, but beastman are handicaped very much by lack of apoth and regen). I think a slightly stronger big guy is one way to accomplish that, and the beast, properly constructed, should fit the bill.

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 4:36 am

I just played against a NR team inthe MBBL. The Beast is sick, I ran into the problem Pariah described at the beginning. Then I got smart and stayed away from the bugger the rest of the game.

I think ST 6 is too much, putting him down to 5 would be a good start.