Open question for Toby...

[Ithilkir]

Ok Toby, noticed a lot of ideas from you about what you'd change in Blood Bowl. Now a lot of people seem to be getting irate about you wanting to change things constantly, now this may be because you have so many ideas and they might not understand the reasoning behind them. So here is what I propose to help you and to help us.

1) Give us one post with all your ideas so we can get a good overview of them.
2) Let us know how your fellow league members feel about them, if you don't have them play tested. Play test them with someone from here so we can get an unbiased view.
3) Give us clear reasoning on WHY it should be changed and WHY your idea is better, prove that a rule is broken. Don't go re-inventing the wheel.

[Pitch Dark]

I dont think that is how it works.. for me I usually get inspired by other peoples post.. for example, i couldnt explain my political views just like that, but if someone where discussing something, i would know exactly what i felt about it and express that.

I simply dont think this is a fair question. Its actually more like a sublime personal attack.

[Deathwing]

Don't think you guys were around back then:
viewtopic.php?t=999&highlight=toby

[Toby]

And still I still stand 1000% behind that oppinion.

Some People here simply do NOT WANT to get me right, that is not my Problem.

Blood Bowl is a Game for some Freaks. Freaks are a group of people with a strong interesst in a hobby that is not Mainstream. Blood Bolw is about imagineing some Fantays creatures run around and Play Football on a pitch on your living room table. Most ordinary people completely lack the understanding for Fantasy altogether. They are to be considered knowlegeable in terms of Fantasy if they know what "The Lord of the Rings" & Harry Potter are.

What I just said is not subject to discussion for me. Its fact to me. Period.

Now on the other Hand you have elecrtonic games, for PC and Console quonquering the toy marked most rapidly. Video games already reached the business volume of hollywood movies, in both terms of production and sales. The two industries are merging as well. For example there is a Harry Potter game acompaning every Harry Potter Movie as well, same with Star Wars, Indiana Jones, and so on.

There is a third thing going on called electronic sports and proffesional gaming. In korea, Blizzard Entertainment sells StarCraft copies like Addidas sells footballs in Germany. U can make a living and become a Superstar by playing Starcraft on a professional Level. A friend of mine lived there and played professionally for 1 year. U can buy StarCraft food, energydrinks and other merchandising of the top players. Its crazy.

Now. Linking theese topics. The internet has mave some awsome changes to life. And when it comes to gaming, online gaming has been a superb succes for companies. And before you freaks and geeks of the boring tapletop whatever boardgame boring community now jump on me check THIS out http://www.warhammeronline.com. I was just teasing you calm down !

Blood Bowl. It sucks ! You need other people to play it, i as you can imagine have no friends so i cant play it. An Online Bloodbowl game could solve this problem. Wait there is this "Play by E-Mail" and "Javabowl". Ok fellows no offence but you are joking. Go press those programs on a DVD and pout them up a storeshelf in a supermarked. This will be a business sucess like an earthquake.

So what I am talking about is an FULL PRICE, 3D Fancy Graphics, Totally Cool Online Blood Bowl Video Game. If you still dont get it now (Galak), stop reading and flame me again.

So there is no such game. There won't be anything like this soon. Well, lets see. If http://www.warhammeronline.com will be sucessfull, I bet there will be millions of people crying "hey do what Toby says, make a Blood Bowl version of this game".

Finally. You made it to the point I was trying to make.

IF a Blood Bowl online PC game was in the works, what would you thing shoud be in the game featurewise ?
All I was saying is, keep in mind, the "League" the Group of people you play with will be >1000 Teams with servers in Európe, Asia, and North America.
So, even if there are no "allied races" if you coach a Human Team, you could still find some 100 other Human teams to trade players with !

It would be helpful to be inspired by Starcraft, Diablo2 and Warcraft3, in terms of Online Gaming, to see what's behind the huge succes of these games.

I was suggesting variations of the rules, for different styles of play. Like TOURNAMENT, where the focus is on the Coach and actually winning. And LEAGUE, where the Focus is on Team Develpment, third was "MATCH" where you might want to start with a customizable Team Rating to experiment with some Skills or just play one single game.

My third and very important game was that assuming there was an online League Blood Bowl game, rules between PC and Tabletop should be no different in core things. You should be able to go to your friends home, play on a tabletop, upload the result on your "Clan, League, Whatever" Server and play your next game versus some guy from Australia on the web.

The End.

I am right, you are wrong, flame me cry like a girl, time will prove me right. I will not engage into this hopeless discussion because of the people on this board who oppose the idea for themselves and can't and do not want to see the vision.

And by the way, Andy Hall said to me it depends on the succes of warhammer online, GW is inexperienxed in online gameing, they do not want to rush into it, but I should "keep my eyes peeled" for the future.

Thanks for reading.

[Rufio of Montrose]

Hi:
I am also a whf player. I agree that probably it will come to pass that BB will be on line but- perhaps I am the only one in the forum- what about the pleasure of playing with your own painted and converted mini? For me is a very important part of the game. choosing the right colors, doing the conversion to turn each mini into one of a kind. Personally I agree that online will come to pass but for me it takes out much of the flavor from the game.
Sorry if what I wrote it´s not entirely related to the post but I believed that someone had to say a word about it.
Rufio of Montrose

[Talafar]

Toby, I understand what you want to do. And I have to say that an online BB game could be spectacular. But... you are going about the wrong way to change the game. Almost all your ideas that you post, meet with 99% opposition from the experienced players on these boards. This is because the ideas are too radical, and would make the game less enjoyable, rather than more so. If you have no people to play against (as you say in your post), then you are not in a very good position to put your views across. Ideas like big guys being able to use TRR are really not good, and any person who plays BB regularly would be able to clearly see that. Halflings and Goblins are meant to be FUN, challenging teams, and if they were made competitive, they would lose this.
This is kind of a big statement, but I would guess that you have not played a BB game with the right kind of atmosphere. For example, my friend went for it, with his experienced skaven thrower, to get into a better position. He rolled a 1, went down, I broke the armour, caused a serious injury and killed the rat. He used his apothecary.... and got a 1. Now this was his star thrower, so you would expect him to be a little upset. Instead he was in hysterics. (as I was). The idea of improving goblins would go against this whole spirit of the game, of having fun, and this is something you cannot seem to see.
Well I've rambled on for long enough, but I hope I've got my point across.
Sorry if I'm being too harsh, or mis-interpreting your post.

[Snew]

I am right, you are wrong, flame me cry like a girl, time will prove me right. I will not engage into this hopeless discussion because of the people on this board who oppose the idea for themselves and can't and do not want to see the vision.

And Toby goes out in another blaze of glory with another comment like this. [shakes head sadly] When will people realize that you can't beat people into your way of think but that they must be won over. He may have had some decent ideas, or at least bold ones, but the delivery pretty much sucked.

I widh we had an online Utopia of which he spoke.

[Toby]

This is so difficult...

I was just explaining (again) my "Online Gaming would be Cool" crusade.

As to the topics you mentioned... these are of topic here, agreed ?

[Toby]

Hi:
I am also a whf player. I agree that probably it will come to pass that BB will be on line but- perhaps I am the only one in the forum- what about the pleasure of playing with your own painted and converted mini? For me is a very important part of the game. choosing the right colors, doing the conversion to turn each mini into one of a kind. Personally I agree that online will come to pass but for me it takes out much of the flavor from the game.
Sorry if what I wrote it´s not entirely related to the post but I believed that someone had to say a word about it.
Rufio of Montrose

You are perfectly right !

But there are those who love the miniature part, and those who are so unskilled in painting that they wish to have Star Trek Holographic technology !

Until then, a computer 3D game should do the trick

Remember I said the PC game should be basically the same like the Tabletop. Exept for things like statistics and other Ngimmicks" pc's can do.

[GalakStarscraper]

Blood Bowl. It sucks !

Now that's a good way to have a discussion and have people actually want to read your ideas on a Blood Bowl forum ...

You need other people to play it, i as you can imagine have no friends so i cant play it. An Online Bloodbowl game could solve this problem. Wait there is this "Play by E-Mail" and "Javabowl". Ok fellows no offence but you are joking. Go press those programs on a DVD and pout them up a storeshelf in a supermarked. This will be a business sucess like an earthquake.

Okay I program the PBeM tool with Ronald ... Toby nows that. Toby thinks playing a game over email is too slow. He also thinks that the graphics of both PBeM and JavaBowl are too limited for him to enjoy playing them. Again that's fine. PBeM is a niche tool. Its for users that don't have time for tabletop and sit down games. I'm perfectly happy to know that at least 200 coaches worldwide use it. I also got an email a while back from a coach who had lost his job and was having a lot of personal problems. He joined the MBBL2 when it was just starting. He told me that looking forward to opening his email each day to play his next turn was often the high point of his day and that it was something he could look forward to as he waited until later in the day to do his turn each day. He's employed now and life is better, but he wrote to thank me for programming the PBeM program and for running the MBBL2 league. The one thing that Toby will never understand is that Blood Bowl is about the freaks ... its about the people. Its not about 1,000,000 copies sold, its not about being able to make a living as a professional Blood Bowl player from cash tournaments, and its not about soft drinks with Blood Bowl or top players stamped on them. So yeah, I've NEVER argued that a really good online program would not be great for the game. I have argued that I'm not sure that such a creature could be created without massive effort that continues long after the initial release (the newest rule changes and upgrades for the last update took 160 hours of programming time between Ronald and I) It can be done, but the effort required to do it right is one I don't think will ever occur ... if it did, I would be first to say Great Job!

I've talked to Ski several times, I've worked with him on certain projects. I'm a huge fan of the JavaBowl tool since it and the PBeM program target two different types of BB coaches. So my comment simply has been. Nothing Toby that GW would create would obsolete the PBeM crowd because its a different type of environment that an online game doesn't match up with. However, Ski's JavaBowl is the competitor, and all I've ever said is that anything GW puts out has to at least be equal to Ski's program in terms of completeness of the rules and dedication to keeping it up to date as graphics will not sell the program ... I'd rather play Ski's game for free with the right rules than pay for one with incredible graphics that didn't get the rules right. If GW did a proper version, I would be one of the first in line to support it.

So what I am talking about is an FULL PRICE, 3D Fancy Graphics, Totally Cool Online Blood Bowl Video Game. If you still dont get it now (Galak), stop reading and flame me again.

No flames. You've very much misunderstood my position. I'm 100% behind this idea. What I've writen against over the time that you've posted on this topic is that such a game has to include all your 101 New Concepts to succeed. I agree that your proposal above is a wonderful idea, but not if it allows player trade, purchases Star Players that can advance, and the host of other ideas you have mentioned. You've always taken the position that an online game would HAVE to have these features. At one point you even said the board game would die out in year or so because it didn't have these features, and you've never addressed the fact that the board game is thriving more than ever now 1 year after this comment. Toby, we don't disagree on making a great online version of BB. What we do disagree on is what needs to be in it. I think an online version of the LRB 2.0 with checkable options to include the newest official experimental rules would be all you need ... you greatly disagree .... this is were we get into our arguments. It has nothing to do with me being anti-online gaming ... it has everything to do with you believing the LRB rules don't work.

And by the way, Andy Hall said to me it depends on the succes of warhammer online, GW is inexperienxed in online gameing, they do not want to rush into it, but I should "keep my eyes peeled" for the future.

Yes, Andy did. He also said that they would probably contact Ski to be involved with such a project. Again ... look at my posts. I've said before take Ski's rules handling with a good graphics team and you'll have the online game I would support. We don't disagree on an online game Toby ... we disagree on all your house rules that as you've seen virtually no one on this board has your vision of how they would make things better.

So all that said ... I agreed more with this post of yours on this topic than anything you've written before. You limited your attacks on saying the game doesn't work, that the teams are not balanced, and that without your rules an online game would fail. These are the comments that makes people flame you Toby ... has nothing to do with people being anti-online game.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

Until then, a computer 3D game should do the trick

Remember I said the PC game should be basically the same like the Tabletop. Exept for things like statistics and other Ngimmicks" pc's can do.

If this is really your position. That an very good PC game using the LRB rules was what you are advocating just throw in lifetime player stats, team stats, and 3-D graphics and sound. Then you and I agree that such a creature would be a "good thing".

Galak

[Toby]

Galak, is this sooo hard to understand ?

You and Ski, you are not companies. Your work is EXCELLENT, after all thanks to YOU, people are at least able to play SOMEHOW on the internet.

But you do not Stand the comparison with something like Warcraft 3.

And thats not a offence.

And you galak, you are a "purist" no fanc graphics, all blood bowl. Well in the comercial world its more like wihthot fancy graphics people show no interesst at all. And I am not talking about old Blood Bowl players, but new possibly interessted people.

ok ? got me ? can't do more.

[Toby]

Until then, a computer 3D game should do the trick

Remember I said the PC game should be basically the same like the Tabletop. Exept for things like statistics and other Ngimmicks" pc's can do.

If this is really your position. That an very good PC game using the LRB rules was what you are advocating just throw in lifetime player stats, team stats, and 3-D graphics and sound. Then you and I agree that such a creature would be a "good thing".

Galak

Wow. Galak, finally.
Ok if we had this LRB Online Blood Bowl.

Imagine.

Now, think of more gimmicks, more things that you would want to be in the game, because they now seem to be possible or necesarry... remember a league with > 1000 coaches....

[Talafar]

Toby, most people agree that online BB would be very good. What you are NOT addressing, is how extreme your proposed changes are, and how a large amount of them would be bad for the game.

[Toby]

Toby, most people agree that online BB would be very good.

Not on this board, sorry.

What you are NOT addressing, is how extreme your proposed changes are, and how a large amount of them would be bad for the game.

My main point is the "Starplayer System", this is really a topic where i like to see basic changes.

On other topics my comments are not something I am convinced of, but my oppinion or favour. I dont give an example, because I do not want to drift of the PC Game topic. Thats what i was attacked about in the first place.