LRB rosters balanced?

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:07 pm

It was posited by MistWraith in another thread that the original 12 rosters in 3rd ed may have been balanced, but that in the LRB they are not.

Care to agree/disagree? Fire away!

Asperon Thorn · Post by **Asperon Thorn** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:14 pm

It's a difficult topic.

I think they are close enough to say, "yes." A coach can take any team to win a league.

But I also think there are some small things that make some teams easier than others. (orcs with Gobbos, etc)

Asperon Thorn

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:19 pm

i agree...i think that a good coach can win with any team. i think they are mostly balanced, although I wouldn't be against small tweaks here and there to a few of them.

i think one of the sure signs that they are pretty good is that you occasionally get threads to the tune of "team x is overpowered" where team x is different every time.

oh, also, i should not that clearly i am not including goblins and halflings in this equation...oops.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:21 pm

think they are fine

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:23 pm

The fact that no one race is running away with the FUMBBL league kinda screws over any claims that the LRB teams are not balanced.

None of the LRB teams in the FUMBBL league have a greater than 50% win ratio. That's the best proof I've seen to date that any claim by folks like MistWraith that they are not balanced against each other has no basis is data currently at hand.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... v=&order=8

Galak

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:31 pm

how does that make logical sense? am i missing something obvious, or how can it be that aggregates like these have no race over 50%? shouldn't it all balance out to 50% overall? some slightly above, some slightly below, etc etc?

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:31 pm

No. Some teams are clearly superior (not counting stunty teams).

For example, Wood Elves are clearly the best Elf team. They the same number of positional players as the other elf teams, the best player in the game in Wardancers, & a Big Guy. They can make one turn scorers. Their biggest downside (low armor value) is countered with both increased movement, and the toughest big guy in the game. Compared to the other two elf teams they are clearly better, and their success in leagues and tournaments, as well as their popularity tend to show this.

Then you have the Orc team. Another team that is clearly superior. they can do everything well, at the same time as that they are great at bashing. Most other teams, have to focus on bashing to be good at it, not orcs.

Undead are another example of this.

Basically, under the LRB you have three tiers of teams.

At the top you have: Wood Elves, Orcs, Undead, and Skaven.

On the bottom you have the two stunty team.

In the middle you have everyone else.

Dark Lord (retired) · Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:32 pm

I think mostly they are balanced. Balance in Blood Bowl is not black and white. It's impossible to say this is balanced and this is not. I think the closest thing we have t balance is the Orc vs. Human rosters but even there it's really tricky because a poorly designed start up team vs. a smart one can give the appearance of imbalance. For example a human team with an ogre and 4 blitzers against an orc team with 4 goblins might look too powerful to an inexperienced coach.

I think the teams in LRB are balanced as well as can be expected. I think some commissioners just need to be more aware of their league's dynamic. If you are running a friendly little scheduled league with 8 teams, and 6 or 7 of these teams are AV 7 or 8, then maybe you should think twice about letting that known power gamer run a Chaos team. Or even remove the Dirty Player skill, or mighty blow. Whatever, tailor it. Too many coaches just take the LRB rules at face value and assume they will work in any setting.
As a commish it's your job to balance your own league.

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:42 pm

wesleytj wrote:how does that make logical sense? am i missing something obvious, or how can it be that aggregates like these have no race over 50%? shouldn't it all balance out to 50% overall? some slightly above, some slightly below, etc etc?

I think if you have overall good coaching in a league and all races are represented then a winning precentage of a little above or beloow .500 for most of the teams would show me that the playing field is level and that all teams are fine the way they are. I agree that some teams have small advantages over others but I like it that way, as long as any race can win I don't mind having to overcome a little disadvantage when I line up against someone.

Just for the record I would like to say the races that may not be completely balanced have very very minor advantages that should just be left the way they are.

Dark Lord (retired) · Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:45 pm

Am I mistaken or is FUMBBL not really a LRB league? No handocap table, not all of the skills etc.

slackman · Post by **slackman** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:46 pm

i think i have to disagree w/ galak on a minor point. you really have to take into account that there are so many poor coaches out there. and the majority of those play the "better" teams, because its easier to win with, say, orcs, than some other teams. also, some teams quite simply take time before they're actually competetive, such as chaos. i'm sure you'd find that its quite common for someone to start a chaos team and lose their first 5 games because the team isnt set up correctly by an experience coach.

overall, however, i would agree that the teams are balanced as well as any game out there. but i would also agree that some minor changes could make some of the "better" teams closer in comparison to some of the "weaker" ones.

on the elf argument, i would venture out to say that HEs are in fact the best team. the problem is, they're all designed differently. DEs are perhaps the weakest to start, because of their price. but they can still compete w/ anyone.

slackman42

Matsu · Post by **Matsu** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:47 pm

wesleytj wrote:am i missing something obvious, or how can it be that aggregates like these have no race over 50%? shouldn't it all balance out to 50% overall?

Because ties do not count as a win for either team.

Wins for A + Wins for B + Ties = 100%.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:48 pm

MistWraith wrote:No. Some teams are clearly superior (not counting stunty teams).

MistWraith wrote:For example, Wood Elves are clearly the best Elf team. They the same number of positional players as the other elf teams, the best player in the game in Wardancers, & a Big Guy. They can make one turn scorers. Their biggest downside (low armor value) is countered with both increased movement, and the toughest big guy in the game. Compared to the other two elf teams they are clearly better, and their success in leagues and tournaments, as well as their popularity tend to show this.

All of that was completely true in 3rd ed BB as well. plus wood elves had better star players than dark or high elves. Yet you say you think they were balanced then, but aren't now?

Not only that, most people think treemen on wood elf teams suck. i don't happen to be one of them, but they are hardly game-breakers.

Finally you say they are "clearly" better...yet the huge numbers galak provided from a pretty pure LRB league suggest otherwise...I don't think they are 'clearly' better at all.

Take Dark Elves...you exchange Wardancers for Witch Elves (which after a skill or two each are pretty even imo), and catchers for blitzers. catchers are great and all, but having 4 blitzers on top of the witches means you have some pretty decent hitting ability. throw on that that the linemen are better (i'd trade a point of AV for a point of MA on a line elf any day ... 6 is plenty) and I'd say it's more or less a wash. and the numbers seem to back me up.

MistWraith wrote:Then you have the Orc team. Another team that is clearly superior. they can do everything well, at the same time as that they are great at bashing. Most other teams, have to focus on bashing to be good at it, not orcs.

Again with this "clearly"...they aren't. You say they can do everything well, which they can, but they can't do anything "the best". They are a good hitting team, but not as good as dwarves or chaos. They are a competent passing team, but not as good as elves or even humans. They have access to a lot of strength skills, but not as much as chaos or dwarves. Orcs are a very tough team, and can be run very effectively, but I don't think they're superior.

Also, most of this could be said about the human team. Good at everything, decent hitting, decent passing, decent skills, etc etc etc...yet to you they are not overpowered while orcs are.

MistWraith wrote:Undead are another example of this.

Sorry...don't see it. Undead, again, are very good. However, they aren't overly good. They have st5 guys who aren't big guys...but they are MA3 and AG1. they have regen, but not on the guys who are the single biggest targets and only good ballhandlers. they are supposed to be a hitting team, but they have to do so with mostly zombies, and they only have 2 guys with regular access to ST skills.

Again, they have their strengths, but they also have many weaknesses. Hence the concept of "balance".

MistWraith wrote:Basically, under the LRB you have three tiers of teams.

At the top you have: Wood Elves, Orcs, Undead, and Skaven.

On the bottom you have the two stunty team.

In the middle you have everyone else.

sorry, i only agree with the bit about the stunties...everyone else is about equal. what it comes down to is coaching skilll... that "top tier" you have listed is very much conjecture and opinion. Funny that the current "team x is overpowered" thread going on is not one of those 4 teams. It's chaos dwarves.

Matsu · Post by **Matsu** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:04 am

MistWraith wrote:No. Some teams are clearly superior (not counting stunty teams).

Compared to the other two elf teams they are clearly better, and their success in leagues and tournaments, as well as their popularity tend to show this.

Great! You have proof of that, right? The success in leagues and tournaments? Oh wait, no you don't. As FUMBBL and NAF statistics show, the wood elves do not have a clearly superior winning percentage than the other elf teams. So, unless you don't mean "clearly superior" to mean "have a better chance of winning", you're simply wrong.

MistWraith wrote:Then you have the Orc team. Another team that is clearly superior. they can do everything well, at the same time as that they are great at bashing. Most other teams, have to focus on bashing to be good at it, not orcs.

Well, I'll start again with 'where are you statistics to back this up?'

More importantly, you've conveniently ignored the fact that Orcs have a significant weakness in their poor movement and overall ball-handling. Are they capable of moving and ball-handling? Sure. But they're well below average at it and that makes it a liability that you're conveniently ignoring.

MistWraith wrote:Basically, under the LRB you have three tiers of teams.
At the top you have: Wood Elves, Orcs, Undead, and Skaven.
On the bottom you have the two stunty team.
In the middle you have everyone else.

Well, I agree with you about the stuntys.

So, if your analysis of the tiers is so accurate, why is it that Chaos Dwarves are winning so many tournaments right now? Why is it that none of your 'top-tier' teams has a significant winning percentage advantage against other non-stunty teams in systems like NAF and FUMBBL that have extensive data on the subject?

Could it be that while these teams have certain advantages those advantages are small enough or are balanced by significant enough disadvantages that they ought to be considered balanced?

I certainly think so.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 12:27 am

Dark Lord wrote:Am I mistaken or is FUMBBL not really a LRB league? No handocap table, not all of the skills etc.

It has all the skill now DL ... and Ski is waiting for the handicap table to get readdressed in the 2003 Review before programming it in.

So the FUMBBL league is LRB - handicap table. That's close enough for me to bank on the statstitics as a data source for arguing about LRB balance.

wesleytj wrote:how does that make logical sense? am i missing something obvious, or how can it be that aggregates like these have no race over 50%? shouldn't it all balance out to 50% overall? some slightly above, some slightly below, etc etc?

As was pointed out, but I wanted to make sure I answered it: Because ties are not factored into the winning percentage.

Galak