Well, Hello! first of all...

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 6:33 pm

Ok I want to start right away, i am currently trying to redisign BloodBowl.
Well this might sound crazy but i have a feeling that i might be on to something. So if anyone wants to join the project, you are verry welcome.

My aproach is:
What rules will be needed to play Blood Bowl online via the internet, embedded in a professional retail multiplayer only computer game.

The most important concerns are:
Spliting up rules in "playing" the game on the pitch and "managing" teams.
Balancing Races Teams are made of, still allowing each Race to be unique.
Providing diffrent modes of play like "Match", "Tournament" and "Season".

Well i will of course try to get someone at Fanatics and or Games Workshop to listen to and eventually liking, let alone realising the concept, which is at its verry beginning of course. I also want to discuss every aspect of the projekt whith whoever is interested and this Board seems to be the perfect place to do that.

I hope to find people who support me !

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:45 pm

Toby ....

Best advice start by studying the two most developed BB software products already written.

SkiJunkie's Java program and Ronald's PBeM Tool. If you want to know the basics for having a good software product, start with the people that have already cleared the trail.

Just my 2 cents, Galak.

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:51 pm

Galak, nice to meet you

Im sorry, i need to clarify, i am not working on a software.
My intention is to provide a ruleset that covers each aspect of the game, having the possibilitys of a large gaming community in mind.

Those rules MUST be 100% compatible to the Board Game, since major tournaments OF COURSE should be LIVE EVENTS.

What do you think of that ?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 8:33 pm

I think I'm missing something.

There is an online Living Rulebook for the game right now that is under close review to make it "perfect" ... anyone who's read Pink Horror's list at the BBC can admit that this book is getting a very well done review to smash all the bugs.

I guess I don't understand the "larger" gaming community. The rulebook covers all the current aspects of the game, unless you've have a idea to make the game with new rules ... but the 100% compatible confuses me.

It might be a language barrier issue, but I'm not certain yet as to the driving point of what you want to accomplish.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:36 pm

hmm.
do you have any experience in Online Computer gaming ?
try to think of Blizzard's Battle.net

The Living Rule Book can only be a first step. But viewing Blood Bowl from a competitive strategy game point of view, the Game Balance is a mess. The rules are also missing linking parts, and are very wide spread especially if you pick various details from 4th Edition, LeagueOfTheirOwn and LivingRulebook.

I aproach the task right now by shaping out core rules, where everything there is in the game regarding a certain topic like "blocking" is covered COMPLETELY in one Chapter.

What i want to achieve is a complete ruleset that works on a board game AND as a Computer game. Regarding the Community: for Example ther need to be rules for Player Trades between Teams, maybe even between diffrent race teams. Online Bloodbowl would (will) give you the possibility to play whenever you want against people all over the world, whereas the Board game is mostly playerd by a group of like 8 people.

Just Imagine the Possibilities.

christer · Post by **christer** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 9:48 pm

Ok, let me get this straight... You think that in Blood Bowl "game balance is a mess"?? Not to be rude or anything, but have you even played Blood Bowl lately? If you ask me, Blood Bowl is by far the best balanced game GW has released.. If not even the most balanced strategy game I've ever played (Well, ok.. Chess and various other classics like backgammon and othello are probably better balanced..)...

By reordering the rulebook to your liking, you'd have a mess.. Skills would be spread out all over the place, and adding a chapter for skills would be repeating what's already said... In my opinion, the rulebook is pretty good as it is..

-- Christer

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:04 pm

I am not at all speaking of "ordering things to my liking"

Just one Question regarding Balance:

Two Coaches of equal skill and expierience start a new team and paricipate in a league with a series of 15 Games.

Coach A. chooses to start out with Halflings, Coach B. chooses Orcs.

Who's team will rank higher by the end of the season ?

Current Living RuleBook Starplayer Rules:
Maximum Starplayers availiable on a Orc Team Roster: 7
Maximum Starplayers availiable on a Elf Team Roster: 1 (Wood Elf 2)

Assuming 2 Teams have the same amount of money at their disposal, what team has more management options, and therfore variations ?

Balanced ? not at ALL.

McKrackenfield · Post by **McKrackenfield** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:15 pm

I don't get where you are getting the numbers for the star players for the different teams

elves only have 1 star after 15 games?

they may not have the toughest teams but because of the rate at which they are able to score they have a better chance of getting stars quickly than a strength team.

with the exception of halfling and gobbo the teams are very balanced

halfling and gobbo aren't supposed to be a competitive team - they are supposed to be for fun

DaImp · Post by **DaImp** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:21 pm

I must admit to being confused about what you are trying to achieve as well, but the idea of an online BB computer game does sound cool (so long as it is different from the tools already mentioned).... and the management feature also sounds interesting. Am I right in thinking that the management part would be a bit like a football management sim? If you could pull something like that off I think it would be fun. But thois sounds like a full-on computer game, which would obviously require Games Workshop support and backing....

then again, I could be way off track here!

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:22 pm

While it's true that Orcs have many more star players available to them than Elves do, the opportunity to exploit them have been all but removed. You simply don't have the money to use them on a regular basis.

The new rules have gone a long way to even the game out. While there are two teams which are designed to be worse than other teams (goblins, halflings) they are there to fun, not competition. The rest of the teams are fairly well balanced.

There are already two programs that will allow coaches to play each other over the internet and NAF will allow players to record these games online. What would you be doing different from these efforts?

christer · Post by **christer** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:22 pm

Hmm.. I'm trying to not turn this into a flaming contest here, so please don't take it as such...

Well, yes. You are right about the halflings.. You could also have chosen goblins instead of them and you'd still be right. The thing you are missing is that both these wee-folk races are made to suck by design. As far as I can see, they are not really meant to be able to compete in the same league as the other regular sized races.

As for the starplayers.. You're right.. There are different amounts of star players available for the teams.. Although in my experience, people tend to not use them, due to the cost.. And even moreso with the new rules where you can only hire them for one game.. Add to that the highly reduced cashflow issues you get when you need to replace players who suffer from aging and the harder injury table combined with the new winnings chart...

I still think the game is very balanced...

-- Christer

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 10:48 pm

Toby wrote:I am not at all speaking of "ordering things to my liking"

Just one Question regarding Balance:

Two Coaches of equal skill and expierience start a new team and paricipate in a league with a series of 15 Games.

Coach A. chooses to start out with Halflings, Coach B. chooses Orcs.

Who's team will rank higher by the end of the season ?

Current Living RuleBook Starplayer Rules:
Maximum Starplayers availiable on a Orc Team Roster: 7
Maximum Starplayers availiable on a Elf Team Roster: 1 (Wood Elf 2)

Assuming 2 Teams have the same amount of money at their disposal, what team has more management options, and therfore variations ?

Balanced ? not at ALL.

Hi Toby, and welcome.

Just some remarks about it:

-I'm agree when you talked about the difference between a rookie halfling team, and a rookie orc team... Even if:
1/ Final rank should depend on their 15 matches (ie a really hard first match for the orc coach should change the competition... Last league I run, my orc team lost 2 players in the first match... I played against a team supposed weaker than mine just the match after, and made a tie...)
2/ During the 15 matches, coaches would learn differently: one should learn slowlier than the other one, due to some defeats very interesting on tactics, etc... If you talk about management, you should know that learning is an important parameter...

So, naming Balance should be available at the beginning of the first match...

About your project, I must admit I didn't as others TBBers your goals, and your difference...

On the Board game: please don't take it terribly, but you can't link 4th Gold Edition (if I've understood well), Blood Bowl magazines, and 2K1 RUles book. FoTHere are too many differences, on basic mechanics (OPSA removed, fouling, roster teams, ageing, allies -until Blood Bowl Magazine 3

-, ... List is really, really long. For me, The living RUle book is what you want to do. Transfers, etc... have been ruled, but under Compendium Edition (Stadiums, ...).

about the online game: I must admit I can't explain more, but some communities already exist... what would you want to add these games softwares are missing ?

Regards,

DFC

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:10 pm

As a long time coach of Stunty and heck even Titchy teams ... using the Halfling roster to say the teams are balanced isn't a valid argument.

The Goblin team is there when you need a challenge after playing the 13 balanced teams.

The Halfling team is there for when you get good at playing the Goblins OR just like getting your head handed to you for fun.

I ran one of the 3 leagues that helped test and suggest changes to the BB2k1 edition (ie the Living Rule Book) and as such I have to agree with others that compared to other GW games, BB is the most balanced. The rulebook is laid out in about the best way I can think of without duplicating the information.

I guess my question comes down to if you only use the CURRENT rules standard (the LRB) ... what is your problem with the game ... and remember Halfling and Goblin teams don't count ... also neither do the star players now that they are freebooted for one game ... the money just isn't there to worry about them as a balance issue with the current rules.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:15 pm

Hmm, this is more difficult than i thougt...

Well again my question: Anyone here who plays Computer Games online ?
Especially Battle.net, Starcraft, Warcraft, Diablo.

I have trouble to explain in English so i have to give examples, or describe what i would like the Blood Bowl PC Game to be like.

First of all the game i have in mind needs no Computer Opponents, it is a Multiplayer only Game like Counterstrike is. The Game consists of two basic parts: Playing blood Bowl Matches (coaching), and forming a Team (management).

While the coaching part is fairly perfectly covered with Rules, and Faq's like "the oberwald", management is open to LARGE improvements, picking up some great stuff from "ALeagueOftTheirOwn" and having in mind ideas like trading players. Think of the Diablo Items !

The PC Game i have in mind would have to be 100% compatible to the Board Game, which means the way the game is played, the turn based character is not changed. The computer is only used for calculations, keeping records, and most of all, providing the Communication Plattform and matchmaking lobby.

My particular concern is "Playing Modes".
From a simple "one off" Game with precreated Teams (newbies) to participating in a Open League (ladder system) or a REAL League (Like Clans do in eSports).

For Example a open League could run for 9 Month or something. By the time the "ladder season" ends, the team Rosters are "freezed" and the Top 100 Coaches are invited to a big Blood Bowl Tournament, in their countries Capital or something. There could be a Blood Bowl WORLD CUP that way.

ps. You have to keep one thing in mind: as soon as the game is an Online Game, Official rules are for EVERYBODY, there would be no more possibility to use or create "House" Rules, that cover things that are unclear or missing. Same goes with Tournaments. Rules would therefore have to cover details that in smalle groups are quickly agreed, like how the league is run ect.

Regarding the Goblins: I think its stupid to waste cool features on a team that is not competitive and therefore not playable. I know what you mean with the fun aspect, but i can asure you no one would choose halflings to compete in a league. So i currently try to work out ways to fix that, while sticking as close to the original game as possible.

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Wed Jun 12, 2002 11:33 pm

You are talking about the combination of:

www.geocities.com/javabbowl/
www.thenaf.net

Cheers.

PS (I've won many a game with Halflings... but that's because I'm a good coach who wanted a competition.)