phil finally gets his gallery together... mostly

DaImp · Post by **DaImp** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:43 am

Hey Phil,
the minis look cool, but I am particularly interested in your league rules. I am rethinking the structure of my league and the problem of balancing new versus established teams is the number one problem. Some of the ideas you have proposed are very interesting. I am curious how easily players have taken to using these rules over the existing rules. I have a vast gulf between experienced and novice players in my league and don't want to scare away the novice players but nor do I want to impede the team building aspect of the game and allow teams to carry over for multiple seasons.
I think I need to re-read your rules a few more times to really understand how they work. I am not quite sure how you keep a team on TR150 at all times

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:22 pm

your novice players who don't really know any different will have no problems with a balanced-tr system, but you will probably have to fight your veterans on it (i know i did)... veterans are just incapable of dealing with the notion of starting with full rosters and a few rerolls, they think they are supposed to play teams that are one casualty away from never being competitive in a league for some weird reason... the best way to make the conversion is to rebuild one of your older, veteran teams on the new rules, then invite the doubters to build a starting roster and play them... barring weird rolls or terrible coaching, they will see that all those extra players son't make a huge difference in individual drives, since it's still 11-on-11, but the last four turns of the game, when it is still 11-on-11 and the underdog is still playing the game instead of trying to figure out how to get out of the match with enough players to line up next week, then you point out that _this_ is the difference. The veteran team will probably win, all those skills make a big difference, but the underdog didn't get decimated and the casualties they did take are recoverable. the game itself was more fun, and there is always a next week for every team.

it's very much a fight with some coaches, but if you get the system, and you can communicate why it works, you should win the argument.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:45 pm

Looks like a better version of the vault cap rules to me...but building a new rookie team in that system...

Dwarfs with 14 players and 6 rerolls! Ouch in a word.
Until teams have gotten a few skills, 150 is a heck of a lot of stuff.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:10 pm

the difference between the balanced tr system and cap systems is that it addresses the real problem with new vs old games instead of just limiting team growth. it also does a better, cleaner, and easier job of giving the end result of most handicap and inducement systems... extra toys. it also really does change the complexion of those disparate experience games, because lets be honest, in those games, is not the case almost always that the veteran team scores a few casualties against the younger team with maybe 12 players max, resulting in a game that by the second half is no longer bloodbowl, buit rather the underdog simply trying to preserve as many players as he can for the next match? bench depth is the problem in disparate games, not skills.

yeah, those starting teams look weird, they've got deep benches of unskilled players and a lot of luck (rerolls), but two or three games in, you're making cuts. a dozen games in, you're making tough decisions, and 20 games in, you're really in the thick of managing the team. it is a different kind of team development, because it is _team_ development, not player advancement. the decisions you make are now totally different, you have to decide where you are comfortable and effective, do you play best with a 12-man roster with galacticos, or a 14-man roster of moderatly-skilled players. how much luck does your team need? how much have your skills replaced trr's? is that ogre really a good use of cap room? do you really need all your skill players, or can you get by with just two cathers, etc... the system is no longer just "how many spps' did i get" but "how do i manage my team" and personally, i think it is a hell of a lot more interesting and a lot less repetitive that way.

DaImp · Post by **DaImp** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:52 pm

It is taking me some time to get my head around the concept, but I like the idea. It is a departure from everything that we have done before - if anything I would say it is a return to 2nd edition league rules.

I am going to spend some time reading the rules thru again and again and try to get a better understanding of them. Initial prospects of these being adapted to be the new Da Leeg rules are looking good though. I think the principle behind them is sound, just don't have a handle on the mechanics as yet.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:21 pm

I haven't seen what it is you're talking about yet but it sounds like you're already there. If it works like Phil has said it sounds like try-it-you'll-like-it. If nothing else, ask your crew to try it for one season, "just to help Phil test them out." Tell them how we all trust their input and judgement on this. Let them know what an honor it is for their league to be a testbed for this.

Good luck.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:36 pm

an honor? hey, i'm just some schmuck. maybe you could tell them somebody whose opinion actually matters came up with them instead...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:11 pm

Thadrin wrote:Looks like a better version of the vault cap rules to me.

Phil is using the original version of the Vault Cap rules that we discussed for Vault 1.0.

In this system, TV is set at a constant ... at the end of each game you add or delete to the team to get it back to whatever number the league set as the TV point of the league. You never roll for gold ever again.

JJ modified this concept for 2 reasons to get what is in the Vault now.

1) The TV point we had agreed on in our discussions was TV 200 (based on numerous posts at TBB about ideal TR levels for games). JJ didn't like the idea of a rookie coach needing 16 players and several extra models to represent support staff to play their first game of BB. He felt that created too high of a buy-in level similar to other GW games and wanted to avoid that. So he modified it so that for each game you induce up to the level of the higher team ... ie the concept between the Vault and the constant TV system is the same if the constant TV point of the league matched the higher TV team in a match.

2) JJ decided that building a team up through winnings and having them develop from TV 100 to the league cap added a dimension to the game beyond setting everyone at the cap to begin with.

Now I want to be VERY CLEAR on this point. I'm not saying a single negative thing about the rules Lucien is going to use ... not at all. Thadrin's comment just made me want to give the background for Lucien's ruleset. Heck, I'm planning on playing in Lucien's league when he switches to these rules. The Vault rules grew from this concept. The two systems are almost identical in how they balance the game. JJ felt strongly about those 2 items above so the Vault rules were tweaked from the system that Lucien is going to use to what is in the Vault now.

Chet developed this concept and presented it to Lucien et all at the Four Kingdoms tournament at a time where it looked very likely that this concept would become the Vault rules.

So yeah ... its a very interesting idea. The Vault and this concept are siblings .. or at least half-brothers. And I'm glad to see Lucien is going to try them out. Chet uses these rules in his league as well last I knew.

Galak

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:22 pm

Lucien Swift wrote:an honor? hey, i'm just some schmuck. maybe you could tell them somebody whose opinion actually matters came up with them instead...

I was just playing to his leaguemate's base emotions. It was my intention to lift them up.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:35 pm

cousins perhaps... and i've made some changes even against chet's strong arguments against to suit the essential difference in the system I use and the philosophy for it as opposed to the reasons why it was proposed by the creator to the illuminati... when i heard tell of the balanced tr concept, i loved it because it was a response to what i had seen as the core issue for a while and was fumbling about ineptly looking for a fix for... and which the guy who created the idea still probably doesn't get thanks to my inelloquence at explaining it. in fact, what i see as the solution to the problem, was seen as an amusing consequence by everyone else involved. what is the heart of the league system philosophy for me, is an afterthought or a never-noticed by others... the scaling of bench depth, and how its inversion from the ideal has ruined league play.

so i still maintain that the use of build-up ignores the core issue of bench-depth induced imbalance which in my opinion is the purple monster under bb's bed. yeah, i understand that jj might want to maintain bb's reputation as a low buy-in game, but doesn't the handicapping system in place ultimately involve adding one-match players tha tneed to be represented as well? what's the difference? or has it changed back to the occursed "well, you're a higher-tr team, so you have to bench your best players" approach yet again? or are inducements back to a cumbersome and confusing set of weird events? hell, i can't keep track. i've got a job and stuff...

besides, who really buys staff figures? come on... we're talking about a 4-miniature difference... though, at gw's prices, that is a paycheck.

DaImp · Post by **DaImp** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:32 pm

I find the rules proposed by Phil (sorry for seemingly having hijacked ur thread about having ur gallery up...

) far more elegant than the current Vault rules. For some reason I am finding the Vault rules difficult to wade through and not sticking. The rules on Phil's site struck am immediate chord with me in terms of the concept of the rules. It is possible that the TD difference is bigger in my league than is normal as we have 4/5 dedicated players and a bunch more who are very part time so things tend to get hard for the part timers to ever keep up with the dedicated players and as a result they lose interest.

I enjoy building my team up from scratch to a group of experienced players with history. It would take some time for me to adapt to Phil's rules but I do see a lot of merit in the system proposed. If it gets more players playing then I am all for them, and it will provide a different team managment challenge to what I have had to deal with before. Most importantly I can easily see a perpetual league running with these rules and that ultimately is how I want my league to be run. I want teams to carry over for multiple seasons and have history. I know thats what the vault rules are meant to do, but like I said earlier they just don't stick with me. I wish I could offer a more scientific explanation

Having played the game for as long as Phil (ah remember the 4 hour 1st ed days!) I trust my gut instinct.

darthnoir · Post by **darthnoir** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 6:08 pm

Jeebus...you're a great painter in addition to being a great sculptor?!?!

What's next, a guest appearance on Iron Chef?

Nice work.

Laxon Hrull · Post by **Laxon Hrull** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:48 pm

I found the blue kit looked good on the Dwarf team. Nothing wrong with that. Why would there be? What's wrong with electric blue??

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:24 am

So in effect those rules impose a Salary Cap. Keeping all teams at 200? Interesting...

darthnoir · Post by **darthnoir** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:34 pm

Laxon Hrull wrote: What's wrong with electric blue??

After all, it was it great hit for Ice House back in the 80's