My 3d Printed miniatures.

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islandtrevor
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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by islandtrevor »

theghr wrote:It should be said though that many on this board have come to accept a little bit larger models as almost standard size since its in that size most new third party miniatures comes in. But to make miniatures in Willy size is a mistake, since it not only fully alleniates GW-fundamentalist players, its also not ideal even for people that have accepted a little bit larger models. I seriously dont understand why he does them in that size when its not industry standard. Had he created a game of his own, then sure, but that is not the case.
In actuality Willy's models are a bit larger than mine. Especially his newest ones.

I hope the previous post shows that my models actually do fall in line with GW's new stuff (mine being a bit bigger). As for it alienating the GW fundamentalists....I am not sure what you mean....just by the nature of my models not being official is alienating them is it not? And BB is not the only fantasy football game out there...

I am not sure but I suspect that Willy's models are more for display and less for play.

Thanks for the post.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by islandtrevor »

Madsherman wrote:In Willys defense, I'd say the goblin team is close enough:

and the 3D thralls aren't too big AFAIR.. they're just too buff for me :D anyhoo, back on topic: I'd actually like to see a more sideview comparison on the 3rd ed player vs. your own human player. The pic you have is a bit blurry and from up high.

And cool beans that you want rounded edges on your shoulderpads, but I'd do something to make it a bit more irregular.. maybe some studs or crease lines? right now it just looks too much like a 3d tube.
I have not gotten the goblins so cant really say but a friend has the vampires and thralls from willy and those are pretty close to the size of my linemen.

I know my pictures are bad. They were never intended to be advertisment just a general impression so people would have some context to answer the questions I posed. I fully intend to post a better side by side when I get the finished team I ordered (should be mid to late this week). Sadly the test models in that photo are all out right now as I have a friend who has some slightly outdated mold making machines and he is testing to see if the models turn out well on his machines.

About the shoulder pads...I think my poor paint job has given you the wrong idea of them....here is what they actually look like

Image
They are not completely round.

As you can see they have a sharp edge on one side and they actually dip before the raised edge. They also angle inwards where it meets the shoulder.

Thanks for replying

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Madsherman
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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by Madsherman »

ah, ok.. they looked round to me in the other photo. I can see it now. I know that larger is a way to put in more details, but I must admit I respect keeping scale more... like computergames, if you have unlimited power like PC you can make everything as detailed as you want (more or less), but if you have to put it on a disc you have to prioritize which features you want to be nicer.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by islandtrevor »

Darkson wrote:While I don't have anything to say on the sculpting side (no idea how anyone manages it!) I have to say that anything that is in the Willy scale immediately falls down my "want to buy" list, as the size is just to big. GW scale is great, and I wish more 3rd party companies would use it - the details can be good enough and they fit on the pitch fine. If detail is the overriding concern, why not 54mm (Inquisitor) or more, and just get a bigger scale pitch.
Well...to be fair if you gave me green stuff and a putty knife I would produce something that resembled the gum stuck under a chair.

I think people really have gotten the wrong impression of my current models. They are not as big as willys. The only ones I have made that rival willies scale is the humans and even they are not as big (until you get to the blitzers ... but it was a design choice to make them huge). Here is a better picture of one of my teams...ignore the cheerleaders and coach (they are not mine)

Image

These models are in approx 28-30mm scale. From foot to top of the head they are around 31mm.

I also made a cartoon proportioned team with huge gas tanks on the back and tubes going everywhere that were about 32mm tall for the most part (a couple were 36mm) I dont have pictures of them as they were given away as a tourney prize and due to time constraints I didnt get pictures of them. I was not completely happy with the design and am now redoing them as an alternate orc team.

The point I am getting at is that scale is the easiest thing to alter and I now know that a good option for my models will be to offer them in multiple scales and let the customer decide which they like best.

Thanks for the reply....every little bit of info helps me.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by islandtrevor »

Madsherman wrote:ah, ok.. they looked round to me in the other photo. I can see it now. I know that larger is a way to put in more details, but I must admit I respect keeping scale more... like computergames, if you have unlimited power like PC you can make everything as detailed as you want (more or less), but if you have to put it on a disc you have to prioritize which features you want to be nicer.
To an extent yes.

Here comes a bit of a wordy reply and it may seem like I am over explaining but its only because I am not sure how much you know about the process.

Its obviously easier to show definition in larger scales but not impossible in smaller scales with forethought.

I can make 10mm model with amazing detail. To do so I first need to decide that is the scale I want to work in. Then I make design choices that reflect the small size of the model. If I was to scale too much those design choices would look like flaws with edges being overly exaggerated, creases becoming comically big and proportions being unappealingly out of whack.

The same is true in reverse. If I decide to make a model at 35mm then the design choices are made to fit that scale....when you shrink it those design choices start losing the definition they had at the larger scale....creases in clothing become less noticable...facial expressions are lost ect.

I had made that human team with my desires in mind. As I said I like 35mm so used that scale to make my design choices. I then further made choices to make the blitzers larger than the linemen and the catchers smaller than the linemen (the linemen being the base scale). I wanted the team to have a heroic style scaling so went that route in design as well giving the players larger proportions. In the end all of these choices affect and are affected by the scale choice I made to start with. Now as I said, these can be scaled down and the definition loss is minimal up to about 32mm tall (approx 29mm heroic scale). Side by side you would notice it but alone you would have trouble seeing the difference. The most obvious areas this would be seen is in the creases in the pants and the face. The pants would smooth out and the face would lose most if not all the definition I have. Neither of these would change the model significantly as the face is mostly obscured by the helmet and face guard (which is not connected to the face by the way...there is a gap between it and the face...something you cant do with molds unless you make it multipart). While the pants do not have alot of definition to begin with as they are intended to look more like football tights than pants. I have done a test print in both the 28mm heroic and 32mm heroic (very rough scale estimates) with other models and found I prefer the 32mm ones (35mm tall) personally.

On the other hand the females I made....I decided I do not like female models in true heroic scale (they look too much like freakish body builders than women in heroic scale) so I made them in a hybrid style....slightly larger proportions....with the intent to have them at roughly 30mm scale. As I said I wanted to make the team using a caste society concept.....blitzer the warriors of the tribe, linemen regular tribe members, throwers the hunter and gather members and the catchers as youths who had not yet joined a caste. As a result I knew going in that with the linewomen as a base, the blitzers would be larger, the catcher smaller and the thrower being equal. This team was started 3 years ago and off and on I would work on it never having been happy. Anyway...I made design choices based on 30mm for thrower/line, 32 for blitzer and 28mm for catcher (these are scale not direct foot to top of head measurments). I ran into alot of problem due simply to the fact that I was designing for multiple scales in the same style (took me a while to realize that). What I mean is that while each model looked fine alone when next to one another the proportions and detail level was jarringly obvious between models. I just did not have the skill to make that idea a reality in those measurements. So I increased the scale to 30, 32 and 34 and designed based on those scales (meaning foot to eye measurement). The result was like night and day.... Whats more, now if I scale them down they do not seem out of place together as they did when I designed them smaller.

As you can see its less about the actually scale and more about the design choice of which scale to make for. Its true that larger scales will allow for smaller details to be obvious (true in both sculpted and 3d printed models) but with the right choices when making the model you can make them at almost any scale....

As I am still a novice so I tend to go bigger because it is that much easier to give a model proper detail levels than it is at smaller scales. I do try and push my skill to new levels though. One of the projects I am working on is a goblin team that is a bit away from the norm (no spoiler sorry) and a steampunk style robot team to act as an alternative undead (lots of trouble with this one...not as easy to do as I originally thought).

Anyway...thanks again for the post and I hope I didnt bore you with my long winded explanation of my process.

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My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by Madsherman »

Well, if I'm reading it correctly and there's minimal detail loss at 29mm, then I'd go for that. But yeah it IS tough doing detail that small (at least in GS), but the end result is worth it IMO. :)

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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Yup, at 29mm it still looks pretty good...sadly they still cost roughly 100 us for the team. Judging from the response I have gotten the cost is just too high for most people.

I tried GS and I just have no skill in it.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by Madsherman »

another thing in regards to scale: resin can be super brittle.. one of my friends has the RN estudio chaos pact team in resin, and they break if you fart too loud apparently D: so, people who sculpt actual scale (tiny wrists, fingers etc.) are probably better off with another material.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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Madsherman wrote:another thing in regards to scale: resin can be super brittle.. one of my friends has the RN estudio chaos pact team in resin, and they break if you fart too loud apparently D: so, people who sculpt actual scale (tiny wrists, fingers etc.) are probably better off with another material.
I have never gotten any models from RN (this might be the first time I have heard of them....some of the models look familiar though) so I can't really say much about them. I do know this about resin....pretty much all resin is more brittle than a thermoplastic derivative. There are many kinds of resin and how brittle they are depends on the type used. It sounds like the resin RN is using is not a good kind for miniatures that are used in a game. Im sure most can remember the initial run of finecast with GW and how brittle it was...an example of resin poorly suited for table top use. The reason why resin is ever used for minaitures is its actually better for fine details as it has a much lower viscosity. Resin is actually the best material to use for home pours as it produces models with fewer bubbles or errors. It requires a pretty expensive machine to get the pressure needed in injection molds to keep quality with plastics.

When it comes to 3d printing resin printers such as the SLA Form1+ or the B9 tend to produce detail levels of a much greater level than plastic extruder printers like the Makerbot. But the resin prints are much more brittle than the plastic ones. Well for the most part....technology is advancing and new resins are becoming stronger and stronger.

Just for the record, the models I get printed are not resin they are a plastic derivative. They are still not as strong as a cast model but as I said before....the only time I have broken one is when I stepped on it.

But in the end I do agree that using any kind of resin for models with thin parts (like wrists, swords, fingers ect) is not as good a choice as a plastic derivative unless the model is going to be used for display purposes only.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by theghr »

islandtrevor wrote:Yup, at 29mm it still looks pretty good...sadly they still cost roughly 100 us for the team. Judging from the response I have gotten the cost is just too high for most people.

I tried GS and I just have no skill in it.
$100 for a team is not too expensive for a lot of current coaches, at least if that means 16 models. It is kinda the new norm if discounting Impact! Miniatures new resin teams and i'm sure some others. Its totally workable if the team is any good.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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theghr wrote:
islandtrevor wrote:Yup, at 29mm it still looks pretty good...sadly they still cost roughly 100 us for the team. Judging from the response I have gotten the cost is just too high for most people.

I tried GS and I just have no skill in it.
$100 for a team is not too expensive for a lot of current coaches, at least if that means 16 models. It is kinda the new norm if discounting Impact! Miniatures new resin teams and i'm sure some others. Its totally workable if the team is any good.
Thats nice to hear...but it is not the response I have gotten regarding price.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

Post by theghr »

islandtrevor wrote:
theghr wrote:
islandtrevor wrote:Yup, at 29mm it still looks pretty good...sadly they still cost roughly 100 us for the team. Judging from the response I have gotten the cost is just too high for most people.

I tried GS and I just have no skill in it.
$100 for a team is not too expensive for a lot of current coaches, at least if that means 16 models. It is kinda the new norm if discounting Impact! Miniatures new resin teams and i'm sure some others. Its totally workable if the team is any good.
Thats nice to hear...but it is not the response I have gotten regarding price.
I thought you were talking about a number north of 100? Fact is that new 16 player teams on the BB-market goes for about $100. RN Esutdio does it, Meiko does it, Willy does it. Some coaches are bound to complain and not buy them, they have all along, with sound arbitrary logic i might add.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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theghr wrote: I thought you were talking about a number north of 100? Fact is that new 16 player teams on the BB-market goes for about $100. RN Esutdio does it, Meiko does it, Willy does it. Some coaches are bound to complain and not buy them, they have all along, with sound arbitrary logic i might add.
Not being argumentative...just saying that in my original post I asked if a team costing 100-120 was too much. This is not the only place I have posed the question of cost and so far the response was resoundingly negative.

I think part of the reason people (note that I said part...I know its not the entire or even the major reason) do not like my prices is because I am not an actual company....psychologically they put less value on the models. The reason I say this is because I did a test at a local gaming store. They host tabletop games on the weekend and I brought a set of my models in and used them. Whenever someone asked where I got them I said I ordered them off the net for 110 bucks (the actual cost of that set was 80 to me). Not one of the players were suprised by the cost and some even asked what the site was as they wanted to buy the models themselves. Not exactly scientific proof...but it does lead me to certain conclusions.

As far as my work comparing to the works of RN, Willy, Greebo and even Meiko.... I cant say mine does....they carry models that are incredible (for the most part). Mine are decent but not professional quality. This is another reason I think people do not want to pay my price....because it is simply not as good as the professionals. Alas as I have said...right now my distributer is shapeways and I have certain limitations when it comes to price with them.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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islandtrevor wrote:The reason why resin is ever used for minaitures is its actually better for fine details as it has a much lower viscosity. Resin is actually the best material to use for home pours as it produces models with fewer bubbles or errors. It requires a pretty expensive machine to get the pressure needed in injection molds to keep quality with plastics.
A compressor and a pressure vessel are, price-wise, like any other light workshop tool.
Just for the record, the models I get printed are not resin they are a plastic derivative.
It's a light-cured "call it whatever you want" thing.

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Re: My 3d Printed miniatures.

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Steam Ball wrote:
islandtrevor wrote:The reason why resin is ever used for minaitures is its actually better for fine details as it has a much lower viscosity. Resin is actually the best material to use for home pours as it produces models with fewer bubbles or errors. It requires a pretty expensive machine to get the pressure needed in injection molds to keep quality with plastics.
A compressor and a pressure vessel are, price-wise, like any other light workshop tool.
Just for the record, the models I get printed are not resin they are a plastic derivative.
It's a light-cured "call it whatever you want" thing.
Its actually a combination of extruding and light curing.
Whats great about the printer that makes my models is it does not attach supports to the model so there isnt any defect in the final product. They use a wax support which gets melted away....great for the small model maker.

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