Talk Fantasy Football

This was supposed to happen mid-October. I understand that it was delayed until November as one BBRC member had a baby. It is now mid-December. What is happening? If it is only one BBRC member holding it up, can't the other 6 make the decision (assuming they are all equal council members of course).

My understanding is the review should be announced no later than the end of last week based on the last word from the BBRC.

Galak

It's those damn NAF guys...

Any day now.

Pariah wrote:It's those damn NAF guys...

Any day now.

Rofl

I allways assumed that the rules revision would be BEFORE the new rulebook.... aparently they like to change the rules as soon as a new rulebook is launched...

Ooops and I just broke my new rule "only talk if you have something clever to say"... this rule has kept me in silence for the last few weeks...

bof bof................

The new rule book is out along with the new 2002 box set and its already outdated and incorret along with all the mis spellings

To the best of my knowledge, we're currently waiting on Andy and the Fanatics folks to finish the new living rulebook. I don't think there are any more issues waiting to be settled by the BBRC.

As for the rulebook, that's been in the works for a long time, and is the first new printing of the Blood Bowl rules since about 1993. Complain if you want about how it's now "outdated", but I think it's much better that Blood Bowl is actually getting attention now that it would be to not have the "outdated" new rulebook in the first place.

Milo

I think what he's asking is, why would he go out and pay 60 bucks for a new BB set that is just as outdated as his current one?

Why do we have to buy a new rule book and then buy overpriced annuals just to correct it.

I, like many others, were hoping that the rulebook would be complete when it was printed. Why it's not is really confusing and heart-breaking. It seems that we keep shelling out the dough but we never have the right book.

The thing that baffles me is that when people criticize the BBRC or Fanatic we get nothing but contempt from you guys. We get a "Too bad. If you don't like it then piss off." attitude. Shouldn't you guys look at what is making us feel ripped off and discuss it? Nah just let us feel crappy about you. That will sell books.

Just so you all know, There is posted in the "Rules Review" section over at the GWBB site a Q & A that covers many of the topics on Galak's list.

http://www.games-workshop.com/Warhammer ... es_rev.htm

I don't like many of the answers but at least they were answered.

Pariah wrote:I think what he's asking is, why would he go out and pay 60 bucks for a new BB set that is just as outdated as his current one?

Well, it's not as outdated as the previous one, since the new Handbook contains the vast majority of the changes since 1993. The current Rules Review is pretty minor in comparison to last years. And, of course, you can buy the manual separately so you don't have to spend the whole $60 if you already have the dice, board, figures, etc.

Pariah wrote:Why do we have to buy a new rule book and then buy overpriced annuals just to correct it.

Well, I'll just say that you don't, since GW has been nice enough to make the entire rulebook freely downloadable. A lot of companies won't do that sort of thing, especially not for a game that's currently being sold.

Pariah wrote:I, like many others, were hoping that the rulebook would be complete when it was printed. Why it's not is really confusing and heart-breaking. It seems that we keep shelling out the dough but we never have the right book.

It's frustrating for everyone, I think, but it's a financial necessity. Fanatic does not have the money to print new rulebooks every year. Part of the delay in getting this new handbook was that it was necessary to use up the already-printed copies of the old rulebook. Fanatic can only afford to make changes to the rulebook when inventory levels would force them to re-print anyways.

If they chose to scrap all the current copies and print new ones all the time, they'd be forced to charge a lot more for the game to compensate. Raising the price would piss people off, too. Fanatic decided to keep the price down and encourage people to download an online, fully-updated Rulebook, instead.[/quote]

Pariah wrote:The thing that baffles me is that when people criticize the BBRC or Fanatic we get nothing but contempt from you guys. We get a "Too bad. If you don't like it then piss off." attitude. Shouldn't you guys look at what is making us feel ripped off and discuss it? Nah just let us feel crappy about you. That will sell books.

I tend to defend Fanatic for several reasons:

1) I've met Jervis and I know he's truly interested in supporting the game and fans of the game;
2) as a fan of the game myself, I suffered through all the years GW ignored the game and am now thrilled to see it getting the attention it deserves; and
3) I understand some of the financial restrictions Fanatic is facing.

I have no contempt at all for you guys. I just think you are expecting too much for Fanatic to ever be able to deliver something that will make everyone happy. Keep in mind that Fanatic is a much smaller company than GW with a much smaller budget, and they have to support many other games as well. Jervis and Andy aren't in this to make money -- they would have stayed with GW if that was their goal. They started Fanatic because they wanted to make us happy by renewing support for some of GW's fan-favorite older games.

So, if you want to criticize Fanatic, I sure as heck will defend them. If you want to criticize me or the BBRC, I'll listen and discuss your issues with you, with absolutely no contempt at all.

Milo

Milo wrote:

The current Rules Review is pretty minor in comparison to last years. And, of course, you can buy the manual separately so you don't have to spend the whole $60 if you already have the dice, board, figures, etc.

Especially since the cards don't match the rules anymore!

Milo wrote:

Well, I'll just say that you don't, since GW has been nice enough to make the entire rulebook freely downloadable.

All the more confusing. We couldn't have cards online because too many people aren't online but the only way to get the non-broken rules is to download them? huh?


Milo wrote:

Fanatic does not have the money to print new rulebooks every year. Part of the delay in getting this new handbook was that it was necessary to use up the already-printed copies of the old rulebook. Fanatic can only afford to make changes to the rulebook when inventory levels would force them to re-print anyways.

All the more reason to put the book out at a time when it would be current for at least a little while. If the cost is soooooooo much of a factor then why put it out without the complete team list even? Why make it out dated before it's released and thus make a reprint instantly necessary?
It was a bad call. It happens. It's not the end of the world but you can't blame us for being disappointed.

Milo wrote:

If they chose to scrap all the current copies and print new ones all the time, they'd be forced to charge a lot more for the game to compensate. Raising the price would piss people off, too. Fanatic decided to keep the price down and encourage people to download an online

Again, then why no downloadable cards? If they are worried about how much we pay then why are they ripping us off on the Annuals and mags? 7 bucks is very expensive for what they give us. You don't need to be in the printing industry to know that. Just compare that magazine to any other magazine.

Milo wrote:

1) I've met Jervis and I know he's truly interested in supporting the game and fans of the game;

Good. All the more reason to LET HIM KNOW when he is doing something that fans don't like! Like these stupid ass teams he keeps putting out!

Milo wrote:

2) as a fan of the game myself, I suffered through all the years GW ignored the game and am now thrilled to see it getting the attention it deserves;

Me too, but I'm not going gush over everything Fanatic does. If I don't like something then I'm gonna say so. It's called constructive criticism. It's not personal. It's a way of helping but when that help is brushed aside with contempt (not just from you) it's frustrating.

Milo wrote:

3) I understand some of the financial restrictions Fanatic is facing.

I understand they are strapped for cash but that doesn't mean I understand their desicions. Example...USA support? You want money? Well we have a whole lot over here! Try selling some Bloo Bowl stuff in America. Example- Why not print enough mags to go around? A reprint costs more than an over run. I know. Example- Why print material that is not up to date? Why include a page of apologies in the book when you could include a page of the new official teams? Example- Shrt handed? Why not ask fans to help instead of keeping us out of it. There's alot of talent in this forum alone. People willing and able to edit pages, fix spelling errors, illustrate, etc, etc.

In the end I'm not hating Fanatic but some of this support is not focused. They need to get the crack out of their pipe and tell the suit and tie guys what is what.

Can you sit there and defend the booster packs? If you can then are a mindless sycophant. If not then why don't you say something about it? I know that some people see being outspoken as abuse but I never raised any of these points in an angry tone. I simply posted what I felt was wrong. Some things I think are VERY wrong. I want Fanatic to keep on going and not get brushed aside but to do that they need to get new people into the game. THe way things are right now are not any less confusing than they were 2 or 3 years ago. I can't imagine trying to teach somebody this game right now!
"Buy the new box set but don't use the rule book or the reference cards cuz theya re out of date. Instead go online and download the rule book from there. Don't buy the booster packs cuz they aren't what you need. Where do you buy a team from? Um...uh...eBay? I don't know. If you have alot of money you can order from GWUK."

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

The current Rules Review is pretty minor in comparison to last years. And, of course, you can buy the manual separately so you don't have to spend the whole $60 if you already have the dice, board, figures, etc.

Especially since the cards don't match the rules anymore!

I don't think I understand this. Yes, the new rules do not use the Special Play Cards, but I don't see what that has to do with the ability to buy the manual separately from the box set.

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

Well, I'll just say that you don't, since GW has been nice enough to make the entire rulebook freely downloadable.

All the more confusing. We couldn't have cards online because too many people aren't online but the only way to get the non-broken rules is to download them? huh?

Non-broken rules? Let me start by saying I don't think the last year's rules review produced "broken rules".

The cards were a separate issue -- they were too expensive to produce and package in the new set, but they were too integral to the rules to make them available only online... that would mean that anyone who didn't have 'net access would have no handicapping method to help low TR teams against high TR teams.

Since we couldn't do the cards but needed some sort of handicap system, we decided to replace it with a cardless system. It also allowed us to make some changes to cards which were too powerful or not powerful enough.

Fanatic decided to make an updated rulebook available because it's in addition to producing the updates rules in printed form via the annual and handbook. They feel it's alright to have additional materials on the website if they aren't critical to the game.

Pariah wrote: Milo wrote:

Fanatic does not have the money to print new rulebooks every year. Part of the delay in getting this new handbook was that it was necessary to use up the already-printed copies of the old rulebook. Fanatic can only afford to make changes to the rulebook when inventory levels would force them to re-print anyways.

All the more reason to put the book out at a time when it would be current for at least a little while. If the cost is soooooooo much of a factor then why put it out without the complete team list even? Why make it out dated before it's released and thus make a reprint instantly necessary?
It was a bad call. It happens. It's not the end of the world but you can't blame us for being disappointed.

I can't blame you for being disappointed, you're right. I would have loved to have seen it on the shelves earlier in the year. I think it was originally scheduled to be out then; I'm not entirely sure why it took so long. As for the three teams left out, that was due to the fact that books have to be printed in 8-page segments -- adding them in would have required 7 more pages to be created and printed.

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

If they chose to scrap all the current copies and print new ones all the time, they'd be forced to charge a lot more for the game to compensate. Raising the price would piss people off, too. Fanatic decided to keep the price down and encourage people to download an online

Again, then why no downloadable cards? If they are worried about how much we pay then why are they ripping us off on the Annuals and mags? 7 bucks is very expensive for what they give us. You don't need to be in the printing industry to know that. Just compare that magazine to any other magazine.

If you work in the printing industry, you'd also know that larger print runs result in lower per-unit costs. Sports Illustrated prints hundreds of thousands of magazines, and so can charge only a few bucks for full color issues. If Fanatic did that, they'd end up with millions of dollars of full-color magazines that would never sell because the market is so much smaller.

I think I mentioned the downloadable cards earlier.

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

1) I've met Jervis and I know he's truly interested in supporting the game and fans of the game;

Good. All the more reason to LET HIM KNOW when he is doing something that fans don't like! Like these stupid ass teams he keeps putting out!

What don't you like about the teams that are being put out? What would you prefer to see?

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

2) as a fan of the game myself, I suffered through all the years GW ignored the game and am now thrilled to see it getting the attention it deserves;

Me too, but I'm not going gush over everything Fanatic does. If I don't like something then I'm gonna say so. It's called constructive criticism. It's not personal. It's a way of helping but when that help is brushed aside with contempt (not just from you) it's frustrating.

Complaints are not always constructive criticism. Constructive criticism would be something along the lines of "This rulebook would sell much better if it included the 2002 Rules Review", rather than "I can't believe they're asking us to buy this crappy out of date rulebook!"

Pariah wrote:Milo wrote:

3) I understand some of the financial restrictions Fanatic is facing.

I understand they are strapped for cash but that doesn't mean I understand their desicions. Example...USA support? You want money? Well we have a whole lot over here! Try selling some Bloo Bowl stuff in America. Example- Why not print enough mags to go around? A reprint costs more than an over run. I know. Example- Why print material that is not up to date? Why include a page of apologies in the book when you could include a page of the new official teams? Example- Shrt handed? Why not ask fans to help instead of keeping us out of it. There's alot of talent in this forum alone. People willing and able to edit pages, fix spelling errors, illustrate, etc, etc.

I know Blood Bowl stuff has begun reaching USA stores -- I've seen the new set, several new teams, and the handbook in my local hobby shop.

I think Fanatic will print more magazines in the future. The problem with the first few is that they were on a shoestring budget and didn't realize how much demand there was for them.

As for inviting fans to help, they did. That's what the BBRC is. Unfortunately, there's some truth to the "too many cooks spoil the soup" saying. We have a hard enough time trying to reach consensus with seven of us. If you take a random sampling of people from any online forum, you'll find widely diverging opinions on all sorts of subjects. If we had a committee of 30, it would be impossible to reach a decision on anything.

Pariah wrote:In the end I'm not hating Fanatic but some of this support is not focused. They need to get the crack out of their pipe and tell the suit and tie guys what is what.

Can you sit there and defend the booster packs? If you can then are a mindless sycophant. If not then why don't you say something about it?

See, this is the sort of thing I wouldn't consider constructive criticism. In five sentences you accuse them of crack-smoking, being shills to the management, and assume that if I have anything positive to say about the booster packs I'm a "mindless sycophant".

I'm not 100% sure what you're referring to with the "booster" packs, since I haven't seen any myself. Are you talking about the race-specific blisters which include one mini from each position?

Milo

I think you're missing my point about the cards.
If I want to teach somebody how to play the game, and he wants to read the rulebook but doesn't have a computer how can i accomplish this? Especially if my printer is broken (like it is). It's impossible, or next to impossible but yet this is the very reason the cards weren't made. It doesn't make sense. Something as important as the rules shouldn't be treated that way. Why not put the ruoles out in a binder format (like several several people suggested) It solves all of those problems.
As for adding 8 more pages? That's crap. Tell the printing company to use a "dink" It'll add 4 more pages. Take one page to add the 3 new teams, another to advertise some up coming event or product, or just leave them blank and tell coaches they ae for Q&A or notes. Take the pages and have some shmuck off TBB write some fluff. I could fill 3 pages blindfolded.

Maybe the "lower per unit cost" thing would have happened if they did some market research and printed enough magazines. If they didn't even print enough for their own island then i think they really dropped the ball.

What don't you like about the teams that are being put out? What would you prefer to see?

I've posted it all over the board. The necro team is just plain junk. The werewolf isn't a usuable player, the flesh golem is just plain redundant and the whiole thing feels like it was built around selling minis instead of play balance. The Khemri are just plain overpowered, and who forgot that Vamps were broken? Chaos Pact is just silly and so is the Old World team. Allies are a bad idea and so is ditching the Undead roster. People love that roster. There is no reason to get rid of it.

"This rulebook would sell much better if it included the 2002 Rules Review",

I have said things politely several times but when Neo, Chet or Galak jumps all over me for saying so I say it again with more attitude. And why shouldn't I? Who are they to tell me I'm wrong?

I have not seen one good comment on the racial blister packs yet. We can only say, "It's better than nothing." so many times.
I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why having extra dwarf blitzers is a good thing. Why would I buy blister packs for figs I don't need? It was a bad idea! A better idea would have been to sell packs of linemen in groups of 3's. And then sell positional players in singles and only for teams that need them. Or better yet, why not make NEW positional poses?!

I'm not calling you a mindless sycphant. I'm saying that you can't defend everything they do unless you are one. And if you can't defend something then why not say something about it!? Stand up and say, "NO! I don't like that!" instead of, "Oh well it's better than nothing." I don't feel it;s better than nothing. I think confusing new players is harmful.

I ahve several posts on this board that describe things I like. There are several suggest new ways of doing things. I'm sorry if you only reply to the one where I'm describing things I don't like. Maybe you should discuss things with me when I like somethng?

Pariah wrote: I think you're missing my point about the cards.
If I want to teach somebody how to play the game, and he wants to read the rulebook but doesn't have a computer how can i accomplish this?

Buy a copy of the handbook. You'll find that the 2002 Rules Review is not the dramatic, sweeping change that the 2001 RR was. GW has made available a Microsoft Word document with the changes -- actual errata represents less than a page, with most of the RR just some clarifications. It's not that hard. For that matter, you can always go to a copy shop like Kinko's to print out a copy of the LRB.

Pariah wrote:I've posted it all over the board. The necro team is just plain junk. The werewolf isn't a usuable player, the flesh golem is just plain redundant and the whiole thing feels like it was built around selling minis instead of play balance. The Khemri are just plain overpowered, and who forgot that Vamps were broken? Chaos Pact is just silly and so is the Old World team. Allies are a bad idea and so is ditching the Undead roster. People love that roster. There is no reason to get rid of it.

Sorry I missed your other posts. I guess I'd need you to go into more detail to be able to respond in any meaningful way, and this probably isn't the appropriate forum for it. If you want to detail your complaints, post it in another forum, and send me a link, I'd be happy to read them and respond with any thoughts I had.

Pariah wrote:I have said things politely several times but when Neo, Chet or Galak jumps all over me for saying so I say it again with more attitude. And why shouldn't I? Who are they to tell me I'm wrong?

Looks like I got caught in the crossfire, then, since I haven't seen any of your politer comments. I understanding WANTING the 2002 Rules Review in the Handbook, but for a variety of reasons, I guess that just wasn't possible. (For instance, they had to print new books because they ran out of the old 1993 copies. Rather than printing more of the REALLY outdated version to get them by until the Rules Review was available, they worked with what they had -- last years review. Not doing so would have delayed the availability of the BB box set and handbook until early next year.)

Pariah wrote:I have not seen one good comment on the racial blister packs yet. We can only say, "It's better than nothing." so many times.
I'm still waiting for you to explain to me why having extra dwarf blitzers is a good thing. Why would I buy blister packs for figs I don't need? It was a bad idea! A better idea would have been to sell packs of linemen in groups of 3's. And then sell positional players in singles and only for teams that need them. Or better yet, why not make NEW positional poses?!

Here's a reason -- resellers. Investing in Games Workshop requires a store to put a tremendous amount of money into inventory. Every different blister GW sells forces a store to decide whether they'll invest in it or not. Many stores get stuck with thousands of dollars in inventory stuck on the shelves because, for instance, no one around their store happens to like High Elves. By asking stores to order four blisters instead of one, you're asking them to invest much more in the possibility that someone will want to buy those. If one blister is popular but another is not, they may wind up having to eat the cost of the blisters that won't sell.

Now, for a store with a very savvy manager, it may be possible for them to order JUST the right blisters to meet the demand, but you have to remember that most store owners are forced to keep up with the gaming market as a whole, and can't always be privy to all the intricacies of Blood Bowl. What if a store orders a bunch of Throwers, thinking the quarterback is clearly the most important and valuable player? They'd be stuck with a bunch of product they couldn't move, and wouldn't have the blitzers other people wanted.

Selling the additional players in this sort of generic blister reduces the wall space a store needs to display the Blood Bowl minis, improves the ability of stores to provide the minis their customers want to them, and reduces the necessary investment for small stores to carry the full line of Blood Bowl in their shop.

Besides which, you should still be able to order individual minis from GW's mail order lines, AFAIK. Additional minis can always be used for conversions, given to new players to get them started, etc. As for new poses, they may come eventually, but Fanatic does not have the endless resources that GW does. Would you rather Fanatic refuse to re-release the core 12 teams until they can get them all resculpted?

Pariah wrote:I'm not calling you a mindless sycphant. I'm saying that you can't defend everything they do unless you are one.

Actually, you said I was a mindless sycophant if I could support their decision on blister packagine. I did so, but I don't consider myself either mindless or a sycophant. There are reasons that go into making those decisions beyond whether or not customers will wind up with excess blitzers. It does no good to GW or the players to divvy up the minis into separate blisters if no stores are willing to carry them.

Pariah wrote:I have several posts on this board that describe things I like. There are several suggest new ways of doing things. I'm sorry if you only reply to the one where I'm describing things I don't like. Maybe you should discuss things with me when I like somethng?

Maybe I will, but I haven't seen anything you like yet. Admittedly, I haven't had a ton of time to cruise the site recently, but I will try to do so more during the holidays, when I have some time off.

Milo