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Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:35 pm
by Papa Sebco
We had an harsch question on french forum about an event whick took place during Lutece Bowl (big tabletop tournament) :
A coach gained the Suicide Blitz card.
*Play after a kick-off to your opponent has been resolved (including the ball landing) but before your opponent’s turn begins.
*A player of your choice not holding the ball may take a Blitz Action immediatly. This player suffers from the No Hands skill for this Action only.
He used it after an onside kick which landed near the sideline. His player blitzed an opponent. I suppose he had a push result as he asked if he could reroll. A ref told him this Action didn't take place during his turn so he could not use a Team Reroll (right). Then his player run to the ball square, entered in and ball bounced (as player has No Hands when Suicide Blitz card is played). So ref said "turnover". But coach asked how a turnover was possible if it was not his team turn (he wanted to try again to bounce the ball as he hoped the ball to go outside and to be thrown in to his camp)
He finally accepted ref decision but this question has been debated on french forum. Even if we mostly say ref was right (=it was a turnover as a failed pick-up is always a turnover), rules answer about turnover during actions out of turns (mostly using special cards) seem not to be so clear.
Rules definition about turnover is :
Normally, a turn only ends when all of the players in the team have performed an Action. However, certain events cause the turn to end before all of the players have taken an Action. These events are called turnovers.
This Action wasn't taken during a team's turn. So do you think there was no turnover ? (personaly, I think there was turnover but I find it difficult to justify my answer with the rules)
PS: Sorry for frenchy english on that picky question, I did my best
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:59 pm
by Regash
In my opinion the ref was right about the turnover but not about the reroll.
Just imagine the guy had rolled a Skull (Attacker down) instead of a Push.
People would automatically asume that, falling down, his action has ended.
Roll for armour and go on with the opponents turn, right?
You wouldn't argue that, because this is not a turn, there was no turnover, so he could use his remaining movement or a Jump Up skill to stand up and run somewhere else, would you?
So why would bouncing the ball because of a failed piick up be different?
With the reroll, I would argue that the rerolls represent how well trained a team is and yes, that he could reroll the block.
But I'm not 100 % sure about this.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:12 pm
by Papa Sebco
Regash wrote:In my opinion the ref was right about the turnover but not about the reroll.
With the reroll, I would argue that the represent how well trained a team is and yes, that he could reroll the block.
But I'm not 100 % sure about this.
TEAM RE-ROLLS
Team re-rolls represent how well trained a team is. A coach may use a team re-roll to re-roll any dice roll (other than Scatter, Distance, Direction, Armour, Injury or casualty rolls) made by a player on his own team and who is still on the pitch during their own turn.
Ref was right on that.
Regash wrote:In my opinion the ref was right about the turnover but not about the reroll.
Just imagine the guy had rolled a Skull (Attacker down) instead of a Push.
People would automatically asume that, falling down, his action has ended.
Roll for armour and go on with the opponents turn, right?
You wouldn't argue that, because this is not a turn, there was no turnover, so he could use his remaining movement or a Jump Up skill to stand up and run somewhere else, would you?
So why would bouncing the ball because of a failed piick up be different?
If he had rolled a skull and had been knocked down, he couldn't have move no more as rules say :
STANDING UP
The only time a player can stand up is at the beginning of an Action at a cost of three squares from his movement.
So I agree with you but, in my opinion, when you have a rulebook in your hands, it's easier to stop a Suicide Blitz coach who rolled a skull than to stop a Suicide Blitz coach who wants to multi-bounce the ball with his No Arms player.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:32 pm
by Stout Youngblood
Even though the Suicide Blitz takes place outside the normal turn so you can't use a Team Re-Roll, it is still subject to ending early if the player fails an Action. Moving a No Hands player into a square with the ball-
PICKING UP THE BALL
If a player moves into a square in which the ball is lying, they must attempt to pick it up, and – if they wish and are able – carry on moving... If the player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their turn ends immediately.
Since the player has No Hands -
No Hands (Extraordinary)
The player is unable to pick up, intercept or carry the ball and will fail any catch roll automatically, either because he literally has no hands or because his hands are full. If he attempts to pick up the ball then it will bounce, and will causes a turnover if it is his
team’s turn.
You can't continue to try to pick up the ball with No Hands in the hope it will bounce out of bounds. The player failed an Action and so he may no long continue his action.
TURNOVERS
Normally, a turn only ends when all of the players in the team have performed an Action. However, certain events cause the turn to end before all of the players have taken an Action. These events are called turnovers. The following events cause a turnover:
3. A player from the moving team attempts to pick up the ball and fails (note: failing a catch roll, as opposed to a pick up, is by itself never a turnover)
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:25 pm
by sann0638
The ref was right, because the ref in a tournament is always right, but I don't think I would have ruled as a turnover.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:17 pm
by zulu
I would say it is. In a way it is similar to the Blitz result from the kick off table, except you can only do it with one player. I know in the description of Blitz it talks about Bonus turn. This is just a bonus action. However I would agree that it is not crystal clear from the rules, and therefore would ultimately have to be left to the ref's ruling.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:21 pm
by Vanguard
sann0638 wrote:The ref was right, because the ref in a tournament is always right, but I don't think I would have ruled as a turnover.
So if the card did not specify that the player had
No-Hands, you'd allow multiple attempts to pick the ball up?
The standard guide is that cards (and other special rules) override the standard rules. There's nothing on the card to say that Turn Overs can be ignored or do not apply.
Yes, the main rule book doesn't clearly address individual actions (I don't believe they were possible under LRB6) by only listing the conditions that end a turn. However, anything that ends a turn must also, by definition, end the action that was in process.
In the absence of anything to the contrary, I'd agree with the original ruling.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:59 pm
by sann0638
Sure, it would be entertaining
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:14 pm
by Oventa
I think the question is not about opinions.
The question is how you justify your opinion just based on the rule book.
If I go now and say I would rule yet differently that is just another opinion added.
Actually I think stout Youngblood has it spot on and the right arguments based on the rule book.
I think those are good arguments based on the rule book why the ruling of the ref makes sense. (And yes I would rule the same, not that it matters)
Any failed action that causes a turnover for a team also automatically ends the action of that player. This is the general rule.
If that blitzing player would have failed a dodge, we all would have agreed his action is over.
Same to example with the multiple pick up trials.
I am really astonished that there are people who advocate differently then the ref did.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:38 pm
by landrover
Regash wrote:In my opinion the ref was right about the turnover but not about the reroll.
You wouldn't argue that, because this is not a turn, there was no turnover, so he could use his remaining movement or a Jump Up skill to stand up and run somewhere else, would you?
So why would bouncing the ball because of a failed piick up be different?
With the reroll, I would argue that the rerolls represent how well trained a team is and yes, that he could reroll the block.
But I'm not 100 % sure about this.
If I read it correctly, the player was trying to reroll where the ball bounced, by rerolling the failed pickup roll.
A player with no hands cannot ever pick up the ball, so it automatically scatters.
There is no pick up roll to reroll, so no, the player cannot use a reroll.
And if the player was trying to reroll the direction of the scatter, then that is not allowed.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:26 pm
by Papa Sebco
landrover wrote:Regash wrote:In my opinion the ref was right about the turnover but not about the reroll.
You wouldn't argue that, because this is not a turn, there was no turnover, so he could use his remaining movement or a Jump Up skill to stand up and run somewhere else, would you?
So why would bouncing the ball because of a failed piick up be different?
With the reroll, I would argue that the rerolls represent how well trained a team is and yes, that he could reroll the block.
But I'm not 100 % sure about this.
If I read it correctly, the player was trying to reroll where the ball bounced, by rerolling the failed pickup roll.
A player with no hands cannot ever pick up the ball, so it automatically scatters.
There is no pick up roll to reroll, so no, the player cannot use a reroll.
And if the player was trying to reroll the direction of the scatter, then that is not allowed.
No. I may have explained it wrong as english isn't my mother's tongue. Even french coaches know that it's forbidden to re-roll a scatter roll and that a player with No hands can't pick-up the ball.
Problem was :
-it's an Action taken out of turn (that's why a team re-roll can't be used)
-so coach argued there was no Turnover during this Action as rules define Turnover refering to team's turn.
According to me, it's only a problem of wording. Rules' spirit is that a turnover = end of Action + end of Turn. That said, I wanted to have some opinions from abroad (= do you think that rules wording about Turnover is clear enough or that it would be better with a few more words for actions out of turn.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:12 am
by mubo
Agree with Oventa above re opinions.
The only thing similar (action out of game context) is pass block. Which explicitly stats the when the pass block move is finished.
Pass Block
(General)
A player with this skill is allowed to move up to three squares when the opposing coach announces that one of his players is going to pass the ball (but not a bomb). The opposing coach may not change his mind about passing once Pass Block's use is declared. The move is made out of sequence, after the range has been measured, but before any interception attempts have been made. A player may not make the move unless able to reach a legal destination and may not follow a route that would not allow them to reach a legal destination. A legal destination puts the player in a position to attempt an interception, an empty square that is the target of the pass, or with his tackle zone on the thrower or catcher. The player may not stop moving until he has reached a legal destination, has been held fast by Tentacles or has been Knocked Down. The special move is free, and in no way affects the player’s ability to move in a subsequent action. The move is made using all of the normal rules and skills (for example, having to dodge in order to leave opposing players’ tackle zones.)
Players with Pass Block may use this skill against a Dump Off pass. If a player performing a Pass Block in their own turn is Knocked Down then this is a turnover, no other players may perform Pass Block moves, and your turn ends as soon as the results of the pass and the block are resolved.
In this case, RAW, suggest that it's *not* a turnover.
(Although I think it probably should be, and decision of ref was correct subjectively)
FWIW I think there are 2 ways you could clarify this. Either by saying it's the same as a blitz! result, but only one player can act. Or by stating end conditions of the action like pass block.
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:48 pm
by sann0638
Oventa wrote:
If that blitzing player would have failed a dodge, we all would have agreed his action is over.
Because you can only stand up at the beginning of your turn...
It is slightly loose wording, because a lot of the cards are
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:29 pm
by Oventa
@sann : the I bring the argument from vanguard again, which you did not comment:
Then take pick up instead of dodge ( and the player having hands). You would advocate a failed pick up does not end that players action?
Re: Turnover for an action out of turn
Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:20 pm
by sann0638
I don't like the cards for this reason. BB rules are tightly written. The cards are not.