kickers - are they worth it?

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:15 am

Well Galak best to compare it with a punt in American Football and Kick-off. Sure they are two different things, but an average of 6 square kick is way to short in comparison.

My best advice is to give the option to add an second d6 with the penalty of an additional -1 for range. Would make everybody happy and would make one-turn-field-goals not too easy.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:27 am

Call it a drop kick. it's slow, high, and doesn't go very far.

If you need the fluff then Nuffle decrees you can't kick the ball while holding it, it has to be kicked off the ground, hence the drop kick.

It's a game mechanic people - don't change the rules to fit the realism. Orcs playing football remember?

Marcus

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:34 am

Relborn wrote:I don't agree with you Marcus. If the point is to include Kickers,
then the Kick Skill should belong into the kicking-Group.

Why? what's the in-game reason why this should happen? Your point seems simply to be based on nomenclature (it's called kick so it should be a kicking skill....)

Keeping kick a general skill has the following advantages:

(1) It doesn't invalidate existing skill rolls (which suddenly become doubles rolls)
(2) It heads off the need to completely rewrite skill access descriptions for teams without throwers, since anyone can get kick and do a decent job of kicking
(3) It doesn't suddenly cripple a fundamental skill for the sake of adding flavour.
(4) It makes kicking the ball an inclusive skill but still allows for passing teams to develop star kickers if they so desire.

Simple and Effective.

Marcus

Vesticle · Post by **Vesticle** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 11:48 am

Relborn wrote:Sorry it's just my opinion but to me, it's silly if you coul throw farther than kick.

Strong NFL quarterbacks can throw the football almost the length of the field. Strong kickers and punters generally can't kick that far, in comparison.

Allowing to move before a kick, and the distance roll being shortened, seems to me like just one of those attempts to balance both reality and game play. The same reason for most rules that don't "make sense if you think about the real world". Assuming an average movement of 6, your kicking range really winds up being 6 + St + d6, which isn't bad at all, it just increases the distance in a way that doesn't completely match up with reality to give for better game balance.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:46 pm

I would also like to point out that punting in football is usually done fairly safely behind a wall of big men and is very structured. Standing start WALK a few paces and boot.

Having played with the kicking rules .. this is not the feeling at all. Often the kick is done after scrambling away ... most likely with a Dodge involve. So we are talking about a running, weaving, unstructured run before booting the ball ... definitely not a punt.

I have no problem with the D6+ST distance. We played 200 games with the distance being D6+AG and no thought it was unreasonable. The change to using ST for distance means an Ogre ... heck even a Treeman ... has a chance to one turn score without GFIing.

BTW ... I would love to see a Treeman pull this off on a touchback. Granted the odds are only 2.8% that he could (he'd need two 6s) but dang it would be funny as 2 squares in with a 12 square kick would be a field goal and in most of my matches my Treeman has no one in front of him so stepping in 2 squares is not a problem ... very funny indeed

Galak

Oh and Marcus the MBBL3 begged and pleaded with Chet to leave Kick as a General skill and have the rest be Kicking skills. He said no way ever would he agree to this. Said it was the same as saying that Pass should be a General skill and the rest Passing. So I've already tried for this, but if you want to take up the crusade ... more power to you.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:51 pm

Galak: all I could say is, that I trust your playing experience with this new rule, as our league hasn't tested it already.

Many things sound weird at first, but come up very balanced in play.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 1:11 pm

The other one to keep in mind ... an unopposed Ogre could boot it in a one turn score 16.7% of the time (for those keeping track at home that the same odds as rolling a 6 on one D6 roll).

Big Guy teams get a minor leg up thats fun just by itself.

Keep in mind in all these stats that this is unopposed, but I like the options the rules give. The MBBL will be using the REVISED kicking rules for Season 2. I'll let you know how they shake out.

Galak

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:03 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote: Oh and Marcus the MBBL3 begged and pleaded with Chet to leave Kick as a General skill and have the rest be Kicking skills. He said no way ever would he agree to this. Said it was the same as saying that Pass should be a General skill and the rest Passing. So I've already tried for this, but if you want to take up the crusade ... more power to you.

Well, you know, it's not. It's not even remotely. The throwing rules were in the game right from the beginning, the kicking rules are not. Throwers were available on roster from the beginning, kickers were not. Pass is an action skill reroll, kick was not.

It's hammering the square peg of the new rules into the round hole of the existing rules and I reckon that is Not On.

The only reason I can see for changing kick to a Kicking skill is aesthetic, the name fits in with the new skill heirarchy. There's no compelling gameplay reason it should be that way at all. In fact as I've pointed out, by leaving the skill in the General category you are avoiding even further rewriting of the rules.

If you want kick to look like a passing skill then rename the existing kick skill to "kickoff" and leave it alone, then create a kicking skill called kick that allows a skill reroll.

Even then I don't think that's the way to go. I think it would work best left in general, with a seperate heirarchy of kick skills available for specialists.

Marcus

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:17 pm

on more question came up mind: how many squares is the FG now broad (still 7 squares or now 5 or 3 swuares) ?

Does anybody knows this already ?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 2:29 pm

FG is still the 7 squares between the wide zones. In almost all cases you'd be better off going for the TD. I know that sounds wide, but in 200 games, the MBBL3 averaged only .27 Fields Goals per a game .... (thats TOTAL for the two teams combined per a game).

It looks easy ... its not. Especially once your opponent catches on. In the MBBL3, the good coaches quickly learned where to place 3 players in the backfield which virtually shut down kicking (and with the new rules; defense is even easier as the original rules you could kick with +0 from the widezone (now that a -2 roll)). Also every team picks up two Pass Blockers early in the skill rolls. Nothing shuts down kicking like Pass Blockers and the added bonus is that these guys help shut down your opponent's passing game as well ... Every team had 1 to 2 Pass Blockers and it was cool to see an infrequently used skill getting some much needed use.

Marcus ... I'm with you on this one ... I'd like to see Kick stay a General skill OR as you suggested add Kickoff to the skill list and leave it General and move the Kick skill to Kicking category.

Galak

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:08 pm

I say that they should definitely leave Kick(or skill that does what kick does under a new name) as a general skill for those of us that may not take up the kicking rules at all. what good is it to have a band of skills that no-one has access to.

change it to kick-off as suggested by dat Tulip guy and come up with a reroll skill called kick.

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 4:11 pm

Just a thought here, what do you think of adding the 2ed kicking skill Up and Under? From what I remember, on a kick off the ball wouldn't land and scatter for one turn, allowing the kicking team to get downfeild.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 6:58 pm

I think in the current enviroment (ie rules) that Up and Under would be a VERY broken skill. The offense gets to huddle around the target square while the defense locks them in their own backfield ... ugh ... no thanks.

Galak

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sat Sep 14, 2002 6:16 am

I agree with Galak here - this would be the first skill taken by almost any team. Think of how it suddenly makes it impossible for the other team to score in one turn, and for most teams it makes it rather hard to score in two turns.
No doubt about it: this would be the single most broken skill in the game.