Struggling with the 'Pro' Elves

[mattgslater]

Martin finally convinced me to finish the playbook.

I've been speccing/replaying good FUMBBL PE teams for a year now, and I'll give you a taste.

First, there's more than one way to play a Pro Elf team. Pick a model and stick with it:

A) Lineman-heavy, lots of RRs. In money terms, if you take nothing but Linemen, you're like a High Elf team with two free Apo/RRs and an extra 10k. For every positional you take, except Throwers, you lose 20k. Just like High Elves, it's worth it in economic terms to go short on positionals and take plenty of RRs. Having a ton of 6347 unskilled guys is not such a handicap if you have a plethora of RRs, because you will have either a slew of easy rolls or a couple hard ones every turn.

B) Positional-heavy, lots of superior Catchers and Blitzers. 2 RRs is enough if you have the skills to account for it, but PEs can load up on cool players and still have 3 RRs, which makes them objectively superior to High Elves right at the beginning. 3 RRs is enough for any team except maybe Slann and Vampires, and Blitzers and Catchers are just some of the best players at what they do. Nerves of Steel is a borderline skill for most players, but a ton of 8/3/4/7 Catch/Nerves is really scary to play against. When you pop the ball, your guys are 8/9 to catch it, but the other team generally needs 5s and 6s.

Second, format really matters. If you're running a short format, load up on positionals. Same in a TV-driven format, like TV ladders, Cyanide MM, and the competitive FUMBBL divisions: as they die, your TV will come down, and soon you'll have some of the tightest TV economics out there. Elves will go through long slumps of "I wish I was High Elves" where the best guys on the team will get nicked and battered, and you'll lose games that you'd have won if you'd had better AV like High or Dark Elves, or if your shining new replacement rookie Catchers were up-to-speed like Wardancers.

Third, there's coaching. Are you good at playing down men? If not, stick to High Elves. That's mostly what I do. Six elves can be a threat to eleven guys, but I'd rather have nine or ten, thanks. That said, I love Side Step, and starting with two means you can hold a point of attack anywhere on the field; this is great in lightweight leagues, where you know you're going to see speed teams. SS is useful against heavies too, especially in conjunction with Dodge, Fend, and/or Jump Up.

Development: Linos turn over a lot, but it's easy to skill them once. So what I do is try to build them for dedicated purposes, without worrying too much about survival. Kick, Side Step, maybe Wrestle if I know I have to put them on the LOS. Second skill is always Dodge for me, which helps to keep the positionals healthy. Another successful route is Wrestle/SS across the board for linos; Wrestle/SS en masse is really annoying. (This also works for High and Dark Elves.) Kicker may get Wrestle or Block as #2 and Dodge as #3. Catchers go for Dodge, then either Block or Wrestle. I like getting a Leap Catcher early; I don't use it much, but when you need it there's no substitute. If you like running a full suite of positionals and your Kick Lino dies, you can give Kick to a Catcher... but only if your team is already well-developed, or if you're playing in a very short format. Blitzers are workhorses and get no toolbox skills except Tackle. Dodge first, then Fend, Jump Up, Tackle, or Diving Tackle, as you see fit. I use them as wingers, where they advance slowly but play a clear, useful role (very well, once they get Dodge) and they don't take many hits. So in a long format they eventually get very good. Of all your players, they need doubles and stats the least.

[Smeborg]

I’d be wary of going too wrestle heavy on any elven team.

I agree. 3 or 4 Wrestlers is as much as you will need. Wrestle works best on ball-hunting Blitzers, for example Witch Elves, HE and PE Catchers. Wrestle is of strictly limited use on a defensive block (1 in 12 chance of happening on a 2 dice block). (I leave the WEs out of this discussion, as they are a special case.)

I find Block generally better on Elven Linos than Wrestle. Block combines better with Guard (on doubles). It means the Lino remains standing, which is normally better for screening, escorting and marking duties.

In the case of PE Catchers, Dodge+Wrestle+Tackle works very well on them. With Catch+NoS and MA8+Dodge they can receive the ball and score in the turn that they receive it. They do not need to hold the ball - if PEs want to hold the ball, they can give it to a Blitzer.

Hope that helps.

[Viajero]

I love Pro Elves. Their main value proposition is obviously the catchers: MA8 with ST3 that can be developed in any rol imaginable, with patience.

To play elves one has to realize that without those catchers there is not much point in playing Pro Elves. If you dont exploit tehir value then I am afraid that (other than the SS in the (2) Blitzers and maybe 1 more lino in the bench due to cheap costs) one would be much better off playing with any pther elven race basically.

With high elves you seldomly see all 4 catchers in a roster, much less all at the same time in the pitch. Not so with Pro´s. You need them all 4, otherwise and as pointed out above you probably much better off with high Elves or simply play the much more efficient woodies with their also AV7.

So many topics to talk about Pro´s! Difficult to prioritize but I ll touch on a few ideas that may have not been pointed out in the previous posts maybe. From the point of view of a private league with long term development available one of the most efficient starting rosters is probably the 3RR and 2 Catchers one. Speed kills, and Pros need it earlier rather than later if they are to have any advantage over and beyond their brethren at all.

Pro´s attack is one of the most efficient due to their catchers speed and NoS obviously, so the focus is usually in defense and thats where they need to win their games. In order to do that they dispose of one of the most beautiful and underated positionals imho: The SS Blitzers. These guys are the silent star in the team and the key for a good defensive game. Their obvious rol? Simply blitzing annoying pieces. Their REAL rol? Marking the ball carrier turn after turn after turn whenever possible at all. Their development for this rol should go along the lines of Dodge followed by either Tackle or Diving Tackle to shine at it.

This role is fundamental in the usual elfic stacked column defense because it usually ends up forcing the opponent to blitz your blitzer (in order to avoid a 3+ dodge or 3+ hand off or worst) instead of blitzing your defense stacked line. You will not always succeed at this but every turn you do it is a turn your defensive line does not typically need to withdraw 2 tiles as usual but only one (i.e. teh line has just been marked as opposed to blitzed). And one row sometimes is the difference between allowing your opponent to score in that drive or not.

Blitzers are key to the defense and starting with SS and eventually Diving Tackle or Shadowing forces (usually) your opponent to waste his blitz in him. Woodies do not have the luxury to mark in this way so often due to the prevalent AV7, but Pro´s can and should do it as often and as realistically as possible.

On attack the Pro Elf passing game is imho much more effective and fun! Than the High Elf one. Those NoS in up to 4 players make hand off / pass manoeuvres spectacular, but still an Accurate Thrower is the key pivotal threat to start the process. Pro elf passing game is imho the best, and giving sure hands to your primary thrower as his 1st skill is, I think, a bit of a waste! Accurate! and pray for doubles or 6+5 !

Anolther I aspect I am a fan of is building one (or two if possible) linos with Dirty Player. Pro´s linemen costs typically allow you 1 or 2 more pieces in your roster than your average elf team, which in turn allow oyu to take the risk of fouling much more often. Imho, Pro´s can benefit a lot from fouling if they have the bench to back it up.

[mattgslater]

@ Viajero: like I said, format is a huge consideration.

Want to pick on noobz in a matchmaking format?

11x Lino
3x TRR
810k

5 games in, you can have 10 skills and 5 FF for about 1.1M. You can be so loaded on Dodge that your team runs like AG4 Amazons, for about the same price (after FF). Note, FF is a good deal if you're facing newbies and didn't pay cash for it! Vs FF0, your chances of getting FAME +2 are quite solid with FF5 or 6. It's only a penalty once the lesser FF team has at least 5-7 or the greater FF team has more than 7 or so.

You don't have to start that way, either. You can start a few positionals, and just not replace them after they die, or fire them for Journeymen when you start rising too far above 1M. Alternately, you could take 12+ men and maybe an Apoth, and be ready to foul foul foul! (Speaking of which, PE linos are the best foulers among elves (not saying much), and their dedicated DPs the best of all, though far from the best value strictly, due to their ability to pick up SG or Dodge on a normal roll.)

What about a sked league? If you know your first opponent's race and can thereby calculate his starting value, you can set up to take a Wiz in game 1, and still maybe have enough left to take a Catcher and 3 TRRs (no Apoth). Then, going into the next game, you should be able to tell whether or not you can/should shell out for a couple Blitzers or whatnot.

But yeah, Catchers are pretty good. They're just not the only way to fly. If you're walking a new team into a perpetual league, you should take at least four good positionals, including both Blitzers.

Pro Elf offense is trickier than it looks. Scoring isn't that hard: just make a hole, run in a formation, and complete to a Nerves guy. But playing keep-away is significantly harder for PE than for their cousins, because their AV7 Linos go down fast and, being MA6, they aren't great weapons in their own right. It's easy not to get held scoreless, but winning games is tougher.

One of the things that I've struggled with is offense, in fact. It's easy if I have a full squad, but sometimes (just sometimes), I kick first (always my preference), get ground to 5-7 guys and scored on, then can't make it happen on offense and lose 2-0 or 3-0. It's not common, and sometimes it happens even to the toughest teams, but PE have to deal with it more than just about anybody. Skaven are pretty soft too, but they can hit back, and at low values GRs are pretty tough.

Inducements:
* Dolfar is good on a rookie team, because he carries Kick. He's kind of a silly player, but for 10k more than a Kick Lino, a suite of dumb (not useless, just silly) skills plus +1MA is a good value!
* Eldril is just fun. Not only is he one more Catcher to drive opponents batty, but he's also got Hypnotic Gaze. Elf team +HG = hard to game around. He's kind of fragile, and tends to put himself in harm's way in order to use HG. But it's not like you're paying good money for him.
* Moranion and Hubris are game changers at low values. Both are awesome sackers, and can be used to neutralize any one guy. Moranion is more reliable, but if the opponent doesn't have Sure Hands (and you don't have Strip Ball), or has low AV without Dodge, Hubris is hard to ignore. I haven't used them together yet....
* Mercs are good vs bash teams. Merc Linos with Side Step, DP, or Dodge (140k) are my favorites. If you lack a DP, a Merc with DP is a better value than a Bribe. (This is true of any team with G-access linos and no SWs, by the way, and is even more true of 40k/50k linos.)
* PEs love Babes, Bribes, and Wandering Apos.
* PEs get great mileage from Wizards, like all speed teams.

[Viajero]

Yes indeed, your selection of roster always depends on format. The one I am most exposed to is permanent scheduled leagues, with recurrent seasons and divisions where you fight to be top of your, say, 10 teams group etc and have a shot at promotion. I.e. a classic environment to develop a team long term.

If you play fumbbl B or Cyanide Open Leagues with random TS or TV based MM pairings then yes you could consider obviously an all lino roster as you suggest although I d consider those kind of "extreme" experiments!

Regarding offense, indeed. Any Elf race can be quite handicapped without key possitionals, and Pro Elves is probably the elven race who is most severely hit by this issue. My premise of Pro´s having the best offense was obviously making reference to their main asset: the catchers. If they are KO´ed or worst during your defense then Pro´s will suffer later in attack because of lack of mobility and AV7. That´s one key reason why Pro´s need to overprotect those catchers in defense (also in offense mind you) and limit where possible exposure to 2D blocks unless they re blodged/wrodged and there is not tackle nearby.

Going back to the issues of the Opening Poster (Rubik):

When you say you are typically having around 7 injuries (I asume you mean casualties) per match, yes, there has to be somehting you do fundamentally wrong !! Are your opponents MB/Tackle/PO heavy? Since you say you are at 1200 TV I d assume they are not. Maybe a couple MB and a Tackle here or there is typical for 1200 TV´s. From that point of view the only ways you can get so many casualties are: A) Nuffle is having a laugh at you or B) You are remaining in contact with your opponents too often. I presume you know already the classic theory of elven play whereby you "only allow 1 Blitz to your opponent per turn"? Which is typically more easily said than done but, hey. I dont know if you have a way to "account" for the number of blocks you receive in a given game: i.e. if oyu play Cyanide there is a little application called BBManager very useful for stats. If you play TT then try and keep track of the blocks you receive. In any given game if you receive around 30-35 blocks then you are playing probably about right. Anything more than 45-50 blocks is dangerous territory. If you get blocked less than 25 or 30 times in a game you are doing really well.

Asuming an average of, say, 40 blocks received, and asuming a ratio of 65% knock downs (typical) that ll give you around 26 armour rolls. Lets add 3 or 4 additional armour rolls for failed doges or GFI, for a total od 30 rolls. Of those on average and with no MB 41% should break your armour (8+), so thats 12 injury rolls in average. Of those only 1 in 6 ends up in a casualty in average. So there you go. Asuming you only allow a reasonable number of blocks to happen, you should have around 2 casualties per game on average. If you throw in MB the average may go to up to 3, but that would asume most of the blocks use MB, which is rarely the case at 1200 TV anyways. So as you see the key is minimizing blokcs (not surprisingly).

Imh experience and in a league format as mentioned above, Pro´s are typically quite tricky to play with at start. No Dodge and AV7 can mean big trouble, specially if the dice dont go your way. If a Pro team can survive the first few games and get some dodge in Blitzers and catchers then you can start enjoying them at its fullest. Pro´s need to play very conservately in those few first games and use the 3 RR wisely, reserving them typically only for failed key dodges in defense for the most part (those failed dodges that will prevent you from reforming your stacked defense line) or to secure a TD move in attack. In general, but specially in the early games, attacking should mean always having the ball screened or caged properly before throwing any 1D dice if possible. And then letting tournovers happen if necessary.

You state that you typically go for the 2 turner TD and therein may lie the problem. There are often (not always but!) many good reasons why a 2 turn TD may not be a good idea. One is clock management: if you score too fast you will allow your opponent to slowly but surely grind you in for the equalizer in that half, also scoring fast allows your opponent 3 free new hits at the LOS. Last but not least, going for the 2 turner often means leaving your precious catchers more or less exposed to 2D blocks.

Regarding defense and since you say you have a few Dodge players already, their role in the usual stacked defense line is to be in the back row, so when the front one is Blitzed then they can Dodge back if necessary with their Dodge skill.

Given a 2 catcher + 3 RR roster I typically invest first in the Apo, then a 4th reroll. Then I plan to bring in more Catchers, but only if and when the existing ones already have got at least one key blocking skill (i.e. dodge, wrestle or block). Overall I aim for a 13 (or 14 if in a bash heavy environment) piece roster including one or two Dirty Player Linos.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, two-turners aren't so hot unless your opponent is lightweight and you're doing more damage to them than them to you, or if you've got a lead already and your opponent wouldn't have time to equalize (for instance, if you're still fielding a full 11, or it's already the second half). Or, of course, if you've only got two turns left in the half. Otherwise, you should learn to stall with finesse, and score only when it gets too hot.

[Smeborg]

Matt and Viajero - I have a slightly different perspective on Pro-Elves.

Their defense is so good that I am happy to score in 2 turns when it is my receive, and then play defense while my team is as strong as possible. Pro-Elves will often go 2-0 or 2-1 up, leaving the opponent to play catch-up. Once they are 2 TDs ahead, but start to lose players, the Pro-Elves play a game of threatening to score on counter-attack, while slowing down the play such that the opponent cannot equalise or win in the time left.

All the best.