Calling all human coaches Advice needed

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mattgslater
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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by mattgslater »

Aliboon wrote:mattslater:

A tie is a tie, not a loss with an asterix. Just because you're North American and don't understand the concept of a draw, please don't denigrate those who do.

Hard fought draws are better games than easy wins imo. And why do you say there are no exceptions "...where a half-measure shouldn't feel like total failure..." then list a few :roll:
I'll respond to this, then let it drop: if you want the last word badly enough, go ahead. I understand the concept of a draw. You didn't win, and neither did the other guy. I choose to see this as "both sides losing" because I see shooting for the moon as the only way to play, as a practical matter. Fate will moderate your objectives for you; you don't need to do it yourself.

And yeah, guilty of saying "no exceptions, except...": it's cheesy, but linguistically it just denotes an exclusive list of cases where playing for a draw makes sense and is justifiable. Certainly, if I squeak into the postseason or earn a better seed because I tied a tough match instead of losing, I'm happy about the outcome. But if that match wasn't my season finale, then after the match I would have been silently whipping myself for not doing enough to get the W, which at the time I thought I might have needed.

A lot of that is format. If you're playing in a points league, usually a T is worth less than half the difference between a W and a L (for instance, 3W, 1T, 0L: a W is worth more than two Ts). I've heard there is data showing this method creates a perverse tendency to take the draw to deny points, but mathematically it's stupid, unless you are playing your only competitor or are pretty sure you'll give up the score. Better to take a 50-50 shot at 3 points than to be sure to walk away with 1. I see the root of the instinct to cut your losses: when you're talking about basic resources, and your goal is not to starve, passing on the triple-or-nothing makes a lot of sense. And that's how our brains are wired, because that's what matters most in our lives. But when you're competing to have the most points, like in a sports league, and you don't need to eat them or spend them to keep going, shooting for the W is a great risk.

Sorry for the digression, folks. I hope I've finally made my position on that one little point plain.
Anyway, back to topic. I think 16 players is two too many, I think I'd drop a lino and the rookie thrower, or two linos. You need some more tackle if woodies and skaven are running rings around you, more guard wouldn't go amiss either.

Not sure on what to get your thrower, + MA is always good for a thrower, but with Strong Arm and Accurate, you should be able to manage 2+ passes most of the time anyway if you do pass, but if you run with it, then the MA7 should come in useful. If he often gets sacked, then Dump Off might be an option, otherwise Safe Throw to protect from INTs when you need to go over the top, neither skill you should "want" to use, but they might occasionally come in useful.
[/quote]+1 on all of this. I'd drop two linos, keeping the Thrower on a 14-man squad, or dropping him to go down to 13.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by Oly1987 »

Just had a quick read of that playbook posted on here must admit I don't really agree with his development side of things. Considering he plays humans as a bash team he's missing a few tricks. If he's starting with no catchers (which I agree with though I include them later) his blitzers should develop quickly so I would say give all the blitzers guard first as it makes them a lot more bashy and it shouldnt take them long to reach 16spp where you can start looking at mb and tackle. Lino's can be divided between line fodder and ones to skill. Lino's are underestimated and can get some vital skills (kick being one high on my list). A couple of blockle Lino's are good as well (a +ma blockle lino is a blitzer for +10k). Just my 2 cents

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4 catchers and a thrower with hail mary pass, what could possibly go wrong?
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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by TheDoc »

Hi All,

I haven't been back on here for a while but it's great that the comments keep flooding in. I have downloaded coach's playbook and I will have a read later on.

In the end I took the +MA on the thrower #5, sacked the other thrower, sacked a lino, and got rid of a reroll. The team now stands at 13 players.

1 Joe Nalomu Blitzer 8 3 3 8 Block, +1 MA, Tackle, Guard
2 Jorg Wolf Blitzer 7 3 4 8 Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, +1 AG
3 Karl Schwartz Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Dodge, Guard, Stand Firm
4 Edwin Leopold Blitzer 7 3 3 8 Block, Mighty blow, Tackle, Strip ball, Piling on
5 Howie Longbomb Thrower 7 3 3 8 Pass, Sure hands, Accurate, Strong Arm, Block, +1 MA
6 Ditricht Von Hammerstein Catcher 8 2 3 7 Catch, Dodge, Block, Diving catch, Side step
7 Hans Mueller Catcher 8 2 3 7 Catch, Dodge, Diving catch, Fend, Side step, Block
8 Alexander Strongbach Lineman 6 3 3 8 Kick, Block
9 Mad Dog Moody Lineman 6 3 3 8 Block
10
11 Brian Buldock Lineman 6 3 3 8 Block
12 Terry Sherwood Lineman 6 3 3 8 Block, Tackle
13 Dirk Darkwater Catcher 8 2 3 7 Catch, Dodge, Wrestle
14
15
16 K'Rash N'Bash Ogre 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw team mate, Block,

They have now played 3 games in the new season with a 1 win, 1 tie, 1 loss. 1-0 win over orcs, 2-2 draw with woodies (he equalised last turn of 2nd half with an "elf" play) 0-1 loss to orcs though I was one square away to the endzone twice only to fail a dodge or have a pit trap open up on me.

All in all successful. Just a bit unlucky in places.

I have now used the humans as a running team with a big passing option if I need a quick TD or an option out of trouble. The catchers make your opponent look twice when you can throw and catch on 2+.

Cheers

'Ummie

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by TheDoc »

OK I have read the idea that Humans are a bash team in disguise. I'd I agree with some of it. I think that with Humans the problem will always be you are reacting to the other teams play. So if you find you are down players in the 1st half after you have kicked to a bash team your strategy has to change to a quicker style of play to get the TD. But here's the kicker you aren't bashy enough to kill elves/skaven/necro/undead left right and centre so you are at a disadvantage playing a bash game through and through. Yes you have 4 blitzers, you can have a ogre but they don't have tackle/block (in the ogres case) to start and you'll want to keep them alive in the beginning to rack up SPP by scoring TDs. So what do you do you blitz them in and out, bash and dash, forcing the opponent to blitz if they want to hit them.

I see the humans now as much like a dark elf team with more in team rerolls, pass, sure hands, catch, dodge etc. You can now play a good solid running game with mobility being your major asset. The catchers for me are vital, not only for offence where they can be a good outlet if the run fails but also in defence to catch up to the gutterrunners and elves of this world.

I think your human teams strength is it's huge ability to change play mid drive and why oh why would you get rid of this aspect by playing a simple bash n cage game all the time. Play a screen, keep a flexible running game going and keep your opponent guessing with the catchers. The blitzers are a great asset of this team and can be your scorers and bashers but they need to be used wisely. It's rewarding being a human coach and even more rewarding to see your opponents stop playing the way they want because they know that in 1-2 turns you can turn the game to your advantage again. In short Humans = awesome (but I am biased 8) )

'Ummie

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by klauser »

Problem is, if you try to play like dark elves (or any other kind) then you will end up dodging on 3+ quite a bit. And that's just so unrealiable, even with the Dodge skill. That's why is necessary to load up on Guard, so you can just hit them back when they mark you. That's not to say YOU should start marking yourself as a default strat. Screening against bashier teams is just fine with whoeveer is open after blocking a bunch.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by TheDoc »

Right boys and girls. After my terrible performance at Stabb (Well done to Dave/Bsking again) I need as much advice as I can get.

What would everyone say is there top five tips in playing humans. Bsking obviously knows as does Wilf both playing humans and doing much better than me (it wasn't that difficult :lol:)

Catch you all later

Ade

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by Bathoz »

I don't like making new threads when old threads will do.

I had a decent side that is 12 game old.

Stand out players are a St 4, block thrower, a MB & JU blitzer, a SF guard blitzer and Tackle Guard Blitzer. In total I have three guard (one on the ogre).

I have two level ups to ponder - a dirty player rolled a normal skill and is getting wrestle. (Unless that's dead wrong.)

A kick lineman rolled a double, and while my instinct said guard, which will make him a huge target, so it's unlikely he'll live to level 4 and block, someone pointed something out that is making me want to make a bad decision.

This team is a league which does a little fluff. In character stories etc. My team is a "The Longest Yard" style ground of prisioners. And I liked the idea of giving the kicker Hail Mary Pass - essentially, all he can do is kick. So he kicks, and he punts.

I can see a use for such a player on a human team outside of the fluff, but am I massively shooting myself in the foot here?

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by SBG »

Bathoz wrote:I don't like making new threads when old threads will do.

I had a decent side that is 12 game old.

Stand out players are a St 4, block thrower, a MB & JU blitzer, a SF guard blitzer and Tackle Guard Blitzer. In total I have three guard (one on the ogre).

I have two level ups to ponder - a dirty player rolled a normal skill and is getting wrestle. (Unless that's dead wrong.)

A kick lineman rolled a double, and while my instinct said guard, which will make him a huge target, so it's unlikely he'll live to level 4 and block, someone pointed something out that is making me want to make a bad decision.

This team is a league which does a little fluff. In character stories etc. My team is a "The Longest Yard" style ground of prisioners. And I liked the idea of giving the kicker Hail Mary Pass - essentially, all he can do is kick. So he kicks, and he punts.

I can see a use for such a player on a human team outside of the fluff, but am I massively shooting myself in the foot here?
I wouldn't go Wrestle on the Dirty Player: having him prone invites too much of his own medecine, in my opinion. A reliable Blocking Dirty Player is what I'd do with him.

For the kicker, yeah, why not Guard? He'll be a target, but he'll be a useful target!

Fred

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by SBG »

For the sake of discussion, here's my human team. we play long (12 games) season and tend to keep or teams 2-3 seasons, so they are well-developped.

Ogre: Guard, Piling On
Blitzer1: MBlow, Tackle
Blitzer2: MBlow, Piling On, Jump Up (!!)
Blitzer3: AG4, Guard, MBlow, Stand Firm
Blitzer4: Dodge, Guard
Catcher1: Block, Fend, Nerves of Steel
Catcher2: Block, Dauntless
Catcher3: New Guy
Lineman1: Guard, Block
Lineman2: ST4, Block
Lineman3-5: nothing so far.
Thrower: Accurate, AG4, Strong Arm, Safe Throw

We lost in the finals last season. We are 4-0 so far this season.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by Megr1m »

'ummiecoach2010 wrote:Right boys and girls. After my terrible performance at Stabb (Well done to Dave/Bsking again) I need as much advice as I can get.

What would everyone say is there top five tips in playing humans. Bsking obviously knows as does Wilf both playing humans and doing much better than me (it wasn't that difficult :lol:)

Catch you all later

Ade
The problem is that there aren't really a set-in-stone kind of rules for Humans. Partly because not enough people play them, and partly because they can be difficult to play. That difficulty I feel, comes not from the team lacking a dependable style of play, but more from the significantly higher levels of decision making required to play them well. Not only do you have to correctly pick the right tactics, but you also have to pick the exact right time and on top of that, you have to learn how to deal with mediocre die-odds.

As such, you often find people saying things like "you have to play the opposite of what the other team does". Which is kinda neither here nor there, especially in a situation where you have to play many different opponents and don't have time to learn what each particular player does with each particular team. You would probably be better off, creating your own style of play and adapting it to each situation as it comes, instead of trying to cover every eventuality.

Having said that, my top five tips:

1. Play to your opponent's weakness, and not to the opposite of their "style". Take the initiative, and force them to adapt to you and your flexibility.

2. Have a plan, and stick to it. Just because you hit harder than an elf team, doesn't mean you can't score quickly and efficiently.

3. Use the tools that are given to you. Take Diving Catch on Catchers so that when you throw for a 3+ they'll pick it up. Take Stand Firm and Guard on Blitzers to create pockets so that you can make a 3+ pass. Foul with your Linemen. Put Frenzy on one Blitzer to make your corner pushes more dangerous. Use Throwers to actually throw.

4. Your dice are never going to be as good as the specialist teams. Deal with it.

5. Learn from your mistakes. This should be a truism, but people still forget. Doubly so for Human teams, because you have so much tactical ground to cover.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by Ullis »

Bathoz wrote:I have two level ups to ponder - a dirty player rolled a normal skill and is getting wrestle. (Unless that's dead wrong.)

A kick lineman rolled a double, and while my instinct said guard, which will make him a huge target, so it's unlikely he'll live to level 4 and block, someone pointed something out that is making me want to make a bad decision.

I can see a use for such a player [Hail Mary Pass] on a human team outside of the fluff, but am I massively shooting myself in the foot here?
I'd give the DP lino either Block or Wrestle. Nothing wrong with either. But wrestling a guy down on your opponents turn and then getting up and fouling him on your own is hilarious. :)

I'd give the kick lino Guard. Nothing wrong with being a target and even with Guard he's still nothing I'd spend my blitzes on as an opponent. Human teams also need all the Guard they can get and 3 Guard after 12 games isn't too much. I personally can't see any use for a Hail Mary Pass lino on a human team. I'm almost certain that you'd never ever get to use the skill effectively. Especially when you have such a good thrower.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by TheDoc »

Guard is golddust on any lino... go with the guard.

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Re: Calling all human coaches Advice needed

Post by spubbbba »

Personally I’d go with Block on the DP and guard on the kicker. Guard is vital on humans and I don’t think it’s actually possible to have too much.

I’d always take it 1st double on linemen and possibly on throwers, though dodge would probably win out, but would depend on the other skills the team had. Catchers don’t have many decent doubles choices either so guard is a reasonable pick on them, but it does shorten their already pretty low life expectancy.

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