what is better and why fend or SF?

[Bullroarer4]

I have read some differing viewpoints on this and would like some reasoned discussion on the general merits of fend vs Stand firm in league play.

I have several league teams (dwarf, high elf, chaos pact, and chaos) and have found I have taken few positioning skills.

Aside from the anti -dwarf hate, any general advice? I have several players near to skilling up, and would like a broader and more educated viewpoint.

[Shteve0]

Really depends on the player.

For instance, a diving tackle or shadowing safety will benefit most from sidestep to reduce the chance that he is blitzed off a potential receiver.

An high ST or a guard+block player on a team that forms a scrum will want to remain based with his opponent and will look at stand firm.

A player placed on the line of scrimmage (generally when kicking) that just wants to get away from his opponent at the earliest - a skaven linerat, a hobgoblin, or a thrall, for example - will take advantage of the wrestle and fend skills.

[mattgslater]

Fend is for when you want to tempt fate and get killed on a normal pow from a Frenzy or PO guy. At least he doesn't get to use his 20k in killing you.

Stand Firm is for when you don't want to tempt fate and just want to hurry up and get PO'ed to death.

Side Step is for when you feel artistic and want to choose which square to sploosh in.

Okay, fine. Stand Firm is for after Block and Guard on ST4. Side Step is for Blodgers. Fend is for unimaginative coaches with too many Wrestle Linemen. And for carriers after Block and Sure Hands (and Dodge or Guard if available). And for Blodgesteppers if you have your toolbox all taken care of.

[Bullroarer4]

My dwarf team.
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=725663

My elf teams
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=725948
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=729169

If I understand correctly, in short , as dwarfs generally want to stay in base contact, stand firm is optimal.
elves, on the other hand, tend to like space.

[Shteve0]

Yes, though all positioning skills are situational, and will vary depending on the team (and even within a team). For example, for amazons I might look to go:

Blitzers: Start with block and dodge, and have GS-access. Progression goes guard first, then stand firm.
Catchers: Start with dodge, and have GA-access. Progression goes block first, then sidestep, followed potentially by diving tackle.
Linewomen: Start with dodge, and have G-access. Progression for LOS players goes wrestle first, then fend.

These choices are partly limited by skill access, but ultimately you want to be looking at what the player already has, and the role they will play, and go from there. I certainly wouldn't prioritise positioning skills over block, dodge or guard, though; they're your bread and butter.

For dwarfs, this means going guard first on linemen. For elves, you'll want block (or wrestle) and dodge before you start getting fancy with positioning, since they can escape on a 2+ as it is. For skaven linemen without AG4 or ag-skill access, fend is a viable second skill after wrestle or block.

[Digger Goreman]

My dwarf team....
My elf teams....

Cheese! You have no shame

[Smeborg]

Bullroarer - it depends on player-type and environment.

If you play in a heavily ClawPOMB/TacklePOMB environment, and protecting your players is a priority, then you may well prefer Fend (although it still does not protect from a blitzing player with Juggernaut, and also decreases in value if opponents gain ClawPOMB/TacklePOMB plus Grab).

If you do not play in a heavily ClawPOMB or TacklePOMB environment, you may consider the merits of Fend and Stand Firm based on player-type. In general, S-Firm is better on the stronger and slower players, Fend is better on players who like to be mobile. As an example, I give my standard early skill progression on my Nurgle team (a team that likes both skills):

Beast: S-Firm, B-Tackle, Guard
4 Warriors: Block, S-Firm, Guard
3 Blitzer Pestigors: Wrestle, Fend, Tackle
All Rotters: Block, Fend, F-App

The Beast and Warriors tie up opponents, the Pestigors and Rotters roam free.

Hope that helps and all the best.

[Heff]

Well done, you have developed your dwarves correctly...

On topic

Str 5 players with guard and high av get Stand Firm as do blodge guarders unless they double and get sidestep
I have done ok with mass Fend on Norse linemen (and would do better now given that I have a bit of a clue as to what I am doing)
otherwise fend goes on wrestle lino scrimage fodder to keep them alive.

If you are going to do fend do it a LOT (but looking at your beardy filth you have no problem with doing things a LOT).

[Overhamsteren]

If I understand correctly, in short , as dwarfs generally want to stay in base contact, stand firm is optimal.
elves, on the other hand, tend to like space.

That is pretty much driven by skill access, each getting one on normals and the other only on doubles