Jump up the Leader

[Skummy]

And even if Jump Up doesn't help very regularly, I've seen it come in very useful at least once or twice a game, and that's enough of a justification for me.

Of course, Guard will be useful every turn, if the wardancer's placed properly.

What it really comes down to is that there are a lot of really good skills out there for a Wardancer, and it's hard to go wrong. Try and pick whatever you think will fit your playstyle the best and will fill the needs you feel your team has been lacking. If you do that, it's hard to go wrong.

Oh, and get kick on a linelf as soon as possible...

[DoubleSkulls]

so it's not like Jump Up is going to make him any more likely to be fouled.

Yes it is. A prone War Dancer has to use your only blitz to hit the players he's stood next to. If that's the ball carrier I may not foul, because I know you could leap in anyway. If he's got Jump Up I'll foul every time.

[Mirascael]

the problem with jump up on a wardancer (i've said this before) is that he won't get to use it that often. being only av7, a wardancer's main protection is having blk and dge. meaning that if he falls that has already failed. av7 is most likely to be broken on the hit.

if it isn't, a guy with that many skills (especially if JumpUp is one of them) is BEGGING to get fouled. So then he's even LESS likely to get to jump up.

Take Dauntless, it's a skill you're probably a LOT more likely to use.

Did you ever play Woodies? My Wardancers use Jump Up all the time.
On fumbbl, I once tried Dauntless on a Wardancer and only used it once (accidentally) in over 20 games. I use Jump Up several times each game and missed it dearly on that Dauntless dude. And even if the Wardancer is stunned - after he's rolled over he will be fully functionally again the next turn (and most likely back in the business). 250 Woodie games on fumbbl made me appreciate Jump Up as the no.1-trait for Wardancers.

av7 is most likely to be broken on the hit.

Interesting. Have statistical laws been altered for Wardancer armour rolls?

if it isn't, a guy with that many skills (especially if JumpUp is one of them) is BEGGING to get fouled. So then he's even LESS likely to get to jump up.

What essentially proves that Jump Up is the best trait for Wardancers. And even if he is fouled, you have forced your opponent to consider Jump Up, you force him to foul, you force him to get players to a lying player and pay attention to him as though he was standing. Meaning he lacks manpower (orcpower, elfpower, whatever) elsewhere. Exactly what you want.

Take Dauntless, it's a skill you're probably a LOT more likely to use.

Not from my experience. If you're blocking Big Guys, Sauri, BoBs and similar players regularly with your Wardancers, you just don't know how to play Woodies properly IMHO.

Anyhow, this thread is really redundant, isn't it?

[Mirascael]

so it's not like Jump Up is going to make him any more likely to be fouled.

Yes it is. A prone War Dancer has to use your only blitz to hit the players he's stood next to. If that's the ball carrier I may not foul, because I know you could leap in anyway. If he's got Jump Up I'll foul every time.

Additional evidence how valuable Jump Up is, I'd say.

Of course, it's really important to give Wardancers Side Step early, to minimize easy fouls against him, thereby forcing your opponent to either make a rather bad foul, leave the Wardancer alone or force him to get many players into a tactically bad position. Superfluous to say, that Side Step is extremely valuable anyhow, since you can move your Wardancer into the best position every pushback and make push-outs very difficult (giving them the edge on sideline-wars). Side Step is probably not the first skill you want for a Wardancer in a rookie team, but new Wardancers in somewhat developed teams will always get Side Step first in my Woodie teams without a second thought nowadays (unless I'm playing Zons next).

[Mirascael]

Of course, Guard will be useful every turn, if the wardancer's placed properly.

Guard is indeed a very good skill for Wardancers. Personally, I'd take it over Dauntless but not over Jump Up. The problem is that Wardancers are most likely the players who will execute the key blocks and blitzes, Guard won't help them on these, therefore I'd prefer a trait that enables them to reach their targets.

[DoubleSkulls]

thereby forcing your opponent to either make a rather bad foul

This is one very good argument for Jump Up - if you opponent is fouling a 4+ Ref then maybe its a worthwhile strategy.

I'd still prefer Guard or Dauntless in a high Strength environment.

[Democritus]

Guard or Jump up?

I thik it comes down to playstyle. Personally I think an AV 7 player won't get to use his jump up much.
I usually use my blitzers (and also war dancers) as hard hitters and cage breakers, rather than make them super scorers.

So guard is what I would prefer over jump up, but I would also think of mighty blow, frenzy and dauntless.

[Jerhod]

Which essentially proves that Jump Up is the best trait for Wardancers.

Heh...

[Jerhod]

therefore I'd prefer a trait that enables him to reach his target.

Definitely. Jump Up allows you to keep your MA 8 mobility and flexibility, and Wood Elves are all about being everywhere they, and their opponents, want to be.

[Mirascael]

the problem with jump up on a wardancer (i've said this before) is that he won't get to use it that often. being only av7, a wardancer's main protection is having blk and dge. meaning that if he falls that has already failed. av7 is most likely to be broken on the hit.

Even if armour is broken (41.7%): The Wardancer will miss one turn and has MA 8 (10 with Sprint) the turn after. That's a hell of a difference! Actually, the fragile armour of Wardancers is another good argument for Jump Up, since, as afore mentioned, with Jump Up he will only miss one turn.

Guard or Jump up?

I thik it comes down to playstyle. Personally I think an AV 7 player won't get to use his jump up much.

My Wardancers use it all the time. That's experience from about 250 games. You always seem to forget that stunned players roll over and will use Jump Up the next turn then.

I usually use my blitzers (and also war dancers) as hard hitters and cage breakers, rather than make them super scorers.

Well, Jump Up has nothing to do with "super scoring". I use my Wardancers as ball extractors and ball distributors.

So guard is what I would prefer over jump up, but I would also think of mighty blow, frenzy and dauntless.

Mighty Blow? Is your playstyle with Woodies a bashy one? What a waste on such a player IMHO (unless your league is dominated by AV 7 teams, perhaps)! I'd also say that Frenzy will only be good against inferior coaches. You want absolute control over your Wardancer all the time. I think I'd always choose an ordinary skill above MB or Frenzy on Wardancers.

I'd still prefer Guard or Dauntless in a high Strength environment.

Might it be that your experience is coined by the previous ECBBL-season?
2 Chaos, 2 Chaos Dwarf and 2 Orc teams in a league of 9 teams overall beg for different courses of action indeed. In a balanced league including all 13 major races once you should rarely encounter STR 4+ Ball Carriers. And MA 9 STR 2 AG 4 Catchers beg for Block and Dauntless. As far as I know, Al has also chosen Jump Up instead of Dauntless, hasn't he?

I think that the foul-issue made it very clear:
If a trait forces fouls against a player, it must be a very good trait.
If a trait makes fouling superfluous, it can't be that good.

Anyhow: I don't think that Jump Up is such a good trait choice in general (and nowadays I would even prefer ordinary skills), but for Wardancers it definitely is, since the Woodie team depends on the maximal mobility of its Blitzers.

[Jerhod]

Even if armour is broken (41.7%): The Wardancer will miss one turn and has MA 8 (10 with Sprint) the turn after. That's a hell of a difference! Actually, the fragile armour of Wardancers is another good argument for Jump Up, since, as afore mentioned, with Jump Up he will only miss one turn.

A very good point. Hadn't thought of it myself...

[wesleytj]

Even if armour is broken (41.7%): The Wardancer will miss one turn and ... has MA 8 (10 with Sprint) the turn after. That's a hell of a difference! Actually, the fragile armour of Wardancers is another good argument for Jump Up, since, as afore mentioned, with Jump Up he will only miss one turn.

half the time...at best (assuming no mighty blow or claw or whatever). the rest of the time he will miss more than 1 turn because he is kod or worse.

Mighty Blow? Is your playstyle with Woodies a bashy one? What a waste on such a player IMHO (unless your league is dominated by AV 7 teams, perhaps)! I'd also say that Frenzy will only be good against inferior coaches. You want absolute control over your Wardancer all the time. I think I'd always choose an ordinary skill above MB or Frenzy on Wardancers.

I agree about the frenzy, more trouble than it's worth. I disagree about the mighty blow, wardancers are great with the skill no matter what the opponent. of all the players on the wood elf team, they do the most hitting. in fact it's often against the ballcarrier, which is often a catcher type, which often has lower armor than most of the rest of the team, and almost always the ballcarrier is one of their more important/skilled players. What better person to have mighty blow?! anytime you can get a guy like that off the field, your chances of winning increase dramatically. Wardancers with mighty blow are AWESOME. In 3rd ed before traits, Mighty blow was always the first doubles roll they got. Now it's dauntless first, and if you're lucky enough, mighty blow 2nd.

I think that the foul-issue made it very clear:
If a trait forces fouls against a player, it must be a very good trait.
If a trait makes fouling superfluous, it can't be that good.

that's flawed logic. any trait that helps you win games is good, one that doesn't isn't. there are lots of times i will foul a jumpup player simply because they are the only one who can reach my ballcarrier, and knocking them down by itself doesn't help. so you foul them and THEN you're safe. can't count the number of times i've fouled witch elves for that very reason. the last thing a wardancer needs is ANOTHER excuse for someone to foul them.

Anyhow: I don't think that Jump Up is such a good trait choice in general (and nowadays I would even prefer ordinary skills), but for Wardancers it definitely is, since the Woodie team depends on the maximal mobility of its Blitzers.

I agree JumpUp is better for wardancers than just about anybody else. But I still think dauntless is better.

[Mirascael]

half the time...at best (assuming no mighty blow or claw or whatever). the rest of the time he will miss more than 1 turn because he is kod or worse.

I'd say that every trait will be worthless once a Wardancer is knocked out. My Wardancers often trip over their own feet or fail Leaps when trying to get to an isolated Ball Carrier. Therefore I didn't assume Claw etc. (and blocked Ball Carriers don't have these skills very often). Even if he trips then, he will still be a thread to be reckoned with (especially if other players are already nearby).

I agree about the frenzy, more trouble than it's worth. I disagree about the mighty blow, wardancers are great with the skill no matter what the opponent. of all the players on the wood elf team, they do the most hitting. in fact it's often against the ballcarrier, which is often a catcher type, which often has lower armor than most of the rest of the team, and almost always the ballcarrier is one of their more important/skilled players. What better person to have mighty blow?! anytime you can get a guy like that off the field, your chances of winning increase dramatically. Wardancers with mighty blow are AWESOME. In 3rd ed before traits, Mighty blow was always the first doubles roll they got. Now it's dauntless first, and if you're lucky enough, mighty blow 2nd.

Your choice. I don't think the meager +1 is worth it. There are much better skills out there I'd prefer probably.

that's flawed logic. any trait that helps you win games is good, one that doesn't isn't. there are lots of times i will foul a jumpup player simply because they are the only one who can reach my ballcarrier, and knocking them down by itself doesn't help. so you foul them and THEN you're safe. can't count the number of times i've fouled witch elves for that very reason. the last thing a wardancer needs is ANOTHER excuse for someone to foul them.

"...there are lots of times i will foul a jumpup player simply because they are the only one who can reach my ballcarrier,..."
That's exactly why I love Jump Up so much.
Well, you have to send players for a block, players for a foul, and it's not that this particular Wardancer is the only player in the team who has to be taken care of.

I agree JumpUp is better for wardancers than just about anybody else. But I still think dauntless is better.

I only can say that I tried Dauntless on a Wardancer for more than 20 games, used it once (accidentally) and missed Jump Up in all those games dearly. And in more than 200 games with Jump Up Up I never missed Dauntless (except once perhaps, when a Dauntless-Catcher without Block had to do the job of blocking a ball-carrying Kroxigor, successfully btw, would have won that game anyhow, though).