Worst. Advice. Ever.

[garion]

It's just that while a NFL football game has 11 minutes of action over a 3-hour period, a BB game represents maybe one minute of action over a 2-hour period (longer if you game with the laggards in my league). The difference is that in the average American Football game, there are 2 ints, while 2 ints is probably 100 BB games, on average.

But there probably arent even 2 deaths every hundred games of american football. So bloodbowl evens its self out in other ways.

[danton]

More than a few. Enough that you can't call it a rule, but rather a tendency. How about, "passing into coverage is a desperation move" instead of "generally, nobody passes into coverage"?

Though, FWIW, I've been playing BB since 1997, and I've thrown two interceptions, and intercepted one ball, once. And I'm kind of passy. In 40 games on FUMBBL, I've thrown an average of 2 comps per match, which is outrageously high for a coach with a winning record, and I've allowed about 1.25 comps per match (pretty average for a coach with a winning record), and in that time I've thrown no picks and allowed no picks. It's just really, really rare, and PB doesn't improve the odds much. Ints are often gamebreaker plays, but it's not worth investing an early/middle skill in getting more of them, because you'd need to multiply your odds tenfold or more before it's worthwhile.

Ok, but you are ignoring the fact that Pass Block is not only for making interceptions. It can be equally important to get your diving tackle player with a TZ on a receiver. Getting the interception is the ideal outcome of the action, but is by no means the only desired outcome.

I disagree that PB does not improve the odds much of getting an interception too. Evidently it depends a lot on the scenario at hand, but generally a Pass Block player with say Ag 4 and Catch has a much better chance of getting an interception, than say a Troll that you just happen to throw over because you have no other option if you want to score in turn 8.

I do agree that it's generally not worth investing in the skill at low and mid TV, but I think the skill is worth considering at high TV. Really that is all that motivated me to re-ignite this thread. There is a big difference between saying "It is always bad" and saying "it can be useful and is worth considering in some situations".

[mattgslater]

It's just that while a NFL football game has 11 minutes of action over a 3-hour period, a BB game represents maybe one minute of action over a 2-hour period (longer if you game with the laggards in my league). The difference is that in the average American Football game, there are 2 ints, while 2 ints is probably 100 BB games, on average.

But there probably arent even 2 deaths every hundred games of american football. So bloodbowl evens its self out in other ways.

What's a "death"? If, in football terms, it's an IR, it's about 1/game. If it's a corpse, it was common at the turn of the 20th century, but is unheard of in the NFL.

[mattgslater]

I do agree that it's generally not worth investing in the skill at low and mid TV, but I think the skill is worth considering at high TV. Really that is all that motivated me to re-ignite this thread. There is a big difference between saying "It is always bad" and saying "it can be useful and is worth considering in some situations".

Okay. I'm down with Pass Block on a Pro Elf Catcher with 76 SPP. That makes sense to me.

[Joemanji]

There should be more incentive to pass in BB.

The reason passing is a secondary tactic is because generally clock management is more important than moving the ball large distances quickly. The relative difficulty of passing is secondary to this choice. There are plenty of elf throwers than long pass (even bomb) on a rerollable 2+, and they ain't giving me any nightmares.

[B SIDE]

I do agree that it's generally not worth investing in the skill at low and mid TV, but I think the skill is worth considering at high TV. Really that is all that motivated me to re-ignite this thread. There is a big difference between saying "It is always bad" and saying "it can be useful and is worth considering in some situations".

Okay. I'm down with Pass Block on a Pro Elf Catcher with 76 SPP. That makes sense to me.

I might take it at 51 on a lineman safety- something along the lines of Wrestle, Tackle, Strip Ball, PB. It's worth a look at 31 or 51 on Slann catchers, and at 51 or 76 for Gutter Runners, both of which do a lot of pass rushing against deep kicks. A beastman with Tentacles or Disturbing Presence and PB would be interesting, but probably not the best use of TV. A human catcher with Block, Sidestep, Diving Tackle, PB makes for an interesting backfield presence against AG teams.

I don't think it's the greatest skill, but it's not the worst. advice. ever. to put PB on your roster once in a while.

[Wanchor]

I can see Pass Block and Disturbing Presence working well as a combo, but can't imagine ever taking those skills in conjunction in reality. Maybe on the Beast at 176 if I already had Block and Pro for doubles.

[voyagers_uk]

It's just that while a NFL football game has 11 minutes of action over a 3-hour period, a BB game represents maybe one minute of action over a 2-hour period (longer if you game with the laggards in my league). The difference is that in the average American Football game, there are 2 ints, while 2 ints is probably 100 BB games, on average.

But there probably arent even 2 deaths every hundred games of american football. So bloodbowl evens its self out in other ways.

What's a "death"? If, in football terms, it's an IR, it's about 1/game. If it's a corpse, it was common at the turn of the 20th century, but is unheard of in the NFL.

maybe the death of a career - steve slaton and his fumbles.....

[mattgslater]

Priest Holmes.

[voyagers_uk]

Matt Leinart.... surely the victim of a special play card...

[mattgslater]

Peaked, on game 1!

[the.tok]

The only time I made good use of pass block was on a Ag4 undead wight, back in the days were they only had G access (and there were 4 in the team). Didn't expect much of it, only took it because I was running out of G skills to take and thought it would be fun ^^ then I took it on another wight of the same team (Ag3)

and honestly, it was quite fun, and it happened quite a few times that my opponent overlooked it, or remembered it only the turn he planned to pass, which led to riskier moves that he hadn't taken into account at first.

Definitely not a game breaker, wouldn't take it now that they can get S access, but at the time I felt so desperate with their skill selection and never got double skills... that plus there are more G skills now

[Viajero]

bit of a beaten dead horse by now but... here we go.

What most people fail to recognize is that Pass Block is often exerting TV value on the field even when it is not being actively used. Just the presence of a player with the skill in a certain area of the pitch can have an impact on the options that a coach considers viable at that time.

If I faced a passblock, I'd probably run the ball, as obviously a passblocker can get into intercept position.

This.

The argument that there is very very little chance to find a game where Pass Block would have been a better skill than other standard skills is often quoted to derate Pass Block. Although in principle the logic of that argument seems sound, it assumes that that piece would have made use of any of those skills during the game to an extent where its influence would have been higher than Pass Block. My challenge to that is that after the two initial basic skills given to your regular catcher any additional skill influence during the game may be equally limited or maybe simply never took a chance to be used in a clearly advantageous manner, making the Pass Block decission far from trivial. Specially when you consider there are 11 pieces in the field and maybe 1 or 2 at most with Pass Block any given time.

I would typically consider that Pass Block can be perfectly taken after, say, just 2 basic skills have been acquired (say Block and Sidestep if Dodge pre-existing, or Block and Dodge otherwise in your regular catcher). Once those 2 basic skills have been acquired, that piece can do a solid job all around. After that (i.e. any time after reaching 31 SPP) you can easily consider "diversifying" a bit your team with 1 (or maybe 2 depending on your opposition) pieces with Pass Block, while the rest of the team (i.e. the majority of them for crying out loud) continues other standard progressions.

Remember that, at least for me, Danton´s point above is the most important issue when considering Pass Block, yay or nay.

The key issue to realize is that you are not giving Pass Block to every piece in your team (!!), but only to 1 or 2 at most... out of 11 in the field and maybe the 12 or 13 in your roster (reasonable diversification, additional options, give your opponent a couple more issues he needs to worry about, etc). The argument that there is always a better skill is a bit of a too obvious and moot statement... unless of course you mean it to consider Pass Block for the majority of the team.

[Hitonagashi]

Okay, because we've been round this lots and lots...pithy one liner time!

Pass Block is good. Unfortunately, there is almost always a better skill to take.

You aren't comparing Pass Block to no skill (as you and Danton seem to insinuate), you are comparing Pass Block to another skill. A skill such as Side Step will have a far bigger impact in most of the games you play.

It's the same as Divine Catch. Sure, it adds +1 to catches, and you can catch scattered passes. That's awesome right? Just makes your catcher better! ...except, you aren't comparing Divine Catch to no Divine Catch, you are comparing it to block/dodge/sidestep/diving tackle/tackle/frenzy and all those other skills that boost the player *more*.

There are circumstances where a dedicated interceptor in a league of passing teams, Pass Block is unquestionably the right choice. For everyone else, you can get more utility out of another skill.

[danton]

Every few months it should be mandatory to reignite the Pass Block flame war!

You aren't comparing Pass Block to no skill (as you and Danton seem to insinuate), you are comparing Pass Block to another skill. A skill such as Side Step will have a far bigger impact in most of the games you play.

I don't believe I ever compared it to no skill, or insinuated that. All I've ever tried to explain is that Pass Block cannot only be considered in terms of interceptions. Sure, there will be times when a player with Pass Block makes an interception thanks to the skill, but that is the icing on the cake when it happens and not the be all and end all! Just being able to move a player or two out of turn 3 squares can have an impact, especially if they have some good marking skills too.

You may say "if he has Pass Block, then I don't pass, so it's useless". That misses the point, the fact that the skill makes you choose not to pass means that it has exerted an influence on your strategic thinking. A bit like when you think "that player has SS, so I won't blitz him in this situation, because it could make things worse". Some teams will generally never pass, yet in a desperate situation, or with little time to score they will and having cover for that is useful too.

Of course there are many other good skills out there to take and many of them are clearly more useful than Pass Block in the majority of builds. That doesn't make it useless, or not worth considering for some players though.