kickers - are they worth it?

[GalakStarscraper]

The ball can land anywhere in that triangle at THE DISTANCE YOU ROLLED to kick it .... you need Pouch Kick to make it land anywhere in the triangle.

Also the triangle matters for the 3 squares that can kick block. Its quite possible to plan a kick with an adjacent player that cannot kick block. If you remove the triangle the question of who can kick block becomes difficult.

Also using the triangle eliminates some of area of the pitch for trying to kick field goals from. These spots are legit and shouldn't be removed.

Passing uses the range ruler for where the pass can go and who can interception .. this is just the same.

Its actually very similar now to passing:
Passing Range Ruler = Kicking Triangle
Players under range ruler can intercept = Adjacent players under triangle can block
Pass Roll = Away roll
Catch Roll = Distance roll (since you only need to roll for distance if the pass was sucessful .. just like the away roll)

mechanically its very similar but still different.

As for Hook Kick. Hook Kick now allows you to kick from a wide zone without the -1 penalty.

Galak

[Marcus]

OK, brain is fried today so let's sum up for the dummy.

1. Declare kick action and pick direction of kick with template
2. Roll to kick away (AG -1, -1 for widezones, -1 for TZs) Kick skill allows a reroll
3. If kick was not fumbled, roll for kick blockers.
4. If away roll was successful, ball goes ST+1d6. Place the ball at that range along the line described by the template. If kick roll was unsuccessful halve the distance roll but otherwise place the ball the same way.
5. Bounce the ball if it lands on the ground, or resolve catches. Turn over.

Correct?

Marcus

[GalakStarscraper]

Correct ... based on what's been said so far. Remember that a shanked kick is distance / 2 rounded DOWN. so 5 = 2 squares.

The one thing I forgot to mention that is changing is that a shanked kick will scatter one square for it target BEFORE landing (like an inaccurate pass only not as much).

So the correct sequence looks a lot like a pass.

1. Declare kick action and pick direction of kick with template
2. Pass Blockers may move to get adjacent to kicker.
3. Roll for kick blockers if any of the 3 kick block squares have opponents.
4. Roll to kick away (AG -1, -1 for widezones, -1 for TZs) Kick skill allows a reroll
5. If away roll was successful, ball goes ST+1d6. Place the ball at that range along the line described by the template. If kick roll was unsuccessful halve the distance roll (rounded down) but otherwise place the ball the same way.
6. If kick roll was unsuccessful and the distance roll did not carry it off the pitch, scatter once for the landing square.
7. If ball is off pitch, its either a field goal or a throw-in ... otherwise, Bounce the ball if it lands on the ground, or resolve catches. Turn over.

The skills:
Kick skill will allow you to reroll away
Pouch Kick will allow you to target any square in the triangle range instead of only the squares the distance roll away.
Hook Kick removes the -1 wide zone penalty on the away roll.
Strong Leg doubles the ST of the player for the distance modification
Extra Leg add +1 to the Away roll
Dirty Kick still works as described in the Annual.

There's the nickel tour of the revised kicking rules .... a LOT simpler than the Annual. The odds are basically the same for success as the annual, except that one turn scores are now more difficult.

Galak

One other suggestion I would make which I'm not sure if Chet would agree with at all is to make one other modification. Allow a Kicker to be any positional player who gives up a skill access category to get the Kicking category instead .... in addition the player can give up one skill or trait (not Physical) to gain Kick.

With the serious hit to one turn scoring if a Skaven team wants to field a Kicking Gutter Runner:
9/2/4/7 Kick G,K,Phy 80k .... well I don't fear this player at all.

This change would give teams more flexibility in who they give up as their Kicker. It would also allow the Chaos team to have a Kicker:
5/4/3/9 G,K,Phy 100k ... not sure if anyone would take this player, but its an option and he sure could boot the ball if he every got Strong Leg.

I'll run this last change by Chet, but minus this ramble ... I think you'll see that the rules are a lot cleaner ... and very pass like without being Pass Jr.

Galak

[Colin]

I really like the changes that are proposed, alot cleaner than original. Hope they get passed in Oct review.

[ljm]

I think the new rules look good, although I liked the previous rules also. Galak, I think replacing 1-2 linemen (or similar) with kickers would be a lot clearer than your suggestion.

ljm

[GalakStarscraper]

Sorry ljm ... that neither Chet or I will agree with. Blood Bowl does not need to give every team 2 more positional players ... no way ... ain't happening.

Look no team should have more than 10 positional players.

The only official team that breaks this rule is the Orc team if you consider the Goblins positional which we could argue. This is also one of my biggest reasons to dislike the Necromantic team it has 11.

10 is plenty ... go past 10 and really why have Lineman.

So any system that uses Kickers is going to need to have them at the expense of another positional player. I was just suggesting a way to give teams like Chaos an option.

Galak

[Marcus]

I'd argue against the whole roll your own kicker bit. As far as I'm concerned if you can get passers you can get kickers. It's simple, it makes sense. If you want to add a kicking dimension to your Chaos game then pray for doubles just like you would if you wanted to add a passing dimension.

The only thing Chaos should be kicking is heads anyway.

I know it adds flexibility but, as I've argued before, that's not necessarily a good thing. If you allow players to trade off skill access in one group for another group you can't really defend the argument that you shouldn't do it for just about any skill group and any player position.

Kick and Pass sit together nicely in terms of fluff and flavour. Let's leave Chaos and Undead with their running game.

Marcus

[Deathwing]

The only thing Chaos should be kicking is heads anyway.

Marcus

I dunno, brings a more literal meaning to 'hoofing the ball up the field'!

[ljm]

Sorry ljm ... that neither Chet or I will agree with. Blood Bowl does not need to give every team 2 more positional players ... no way ... ain't happening.

Ok, I see your point. I havent' had time to try the new rules, but I get the impression that eventhough away roll is now more difficult, the removal of distance roll just made kicking a lot more attractive option. Maybe we'll see more kickers replacing throwers in the future?

ljm

[GalakStarscraper]

I doubt it .... Throwing is +0 ... Kicking is -1

You can throw from a wide zone with penalty ... -1 for Kicking

If you throw an inaccurate pass it still gets to the target square before the 3 scatters ... which we've shown means there is still a good chance it will be adjacent to your receiver ..... ..... .... if you kick an inaccurate kick it shanks and will only go half the distance you wanted.

With Passing you choose a target square and throw to it. With kicking unless you have Pouch Kick it is impossible to target a specific square.

Reducing kicking to away and a distance roll made the mechanics easier, but it sure didn't remove the passing game.

Galak

[ljm]

Sorry, I didn't mean it would replace passing, just that more coaches would be willing to "sacrifice" a thrower in order to take a kicker.

ljm

[Colin]

I presume that the revised kicking rules still include the rule that kicking the ball ends your team turn, so kicking will never replace passing for moving the ball down the field. I would suggest that if a coach has to sacrafice a position player spot on his team for a kicker, he should have the choice of which one. Though the kicking mechanics may be somewhat similar to passing, that shouldn't mean that a thrower must be sacraficed. A kicker is no where near a thrower (compare QB and P/K on a real football team) as far as skills and athleticism. Personally, I would leave kick skill (and any other kicking type skills, aren't thay many) as GEN skills and let coach develope lineman or whoever into a kicker if he wants. But if the kicker is going to be made into another position player, it makes just as much sense to put him in a catcher or blitzer roster spot as it does to have him replace a thrower.

[GalakStarscraper]

Which was my suggestion , Torg, exactly ... ie I agree fully ...

Galak

[Acerak]

Hi, guys. Glad to see that folks seem a bit happier with the newer rules. I'll go into more detail on the weekend of the 21st.

As for how to get kickers on the roster...well, no one's quite sure!

AS THROWERS: Makes some sense because it preserves the "good with the ball" balance among the races. Makes the throwing teams give up passers, which is a good thing; also, keeps the number of position players constant for each race.

AS LINEMEN: Interesting idea, although it will add 1 position player to every race. (I can't see 0-2 kickers under this scenario, it's too many players!) You'd need to define new positions for certain races, however. A Zombie kicker? Not very useful. A MA4, AG2 Longbeard with Kick? Ugh.

AS ANY POSITION: Interesting again, but not easily modeled. And if these rules become official, models are sure to follow.

I favor keeping them as Throwers. I'm also of half a mind to try them locally at 0-1 per team, with Throwers dropping to 0-1, but I wouldn't suggest that as an official rule.

Cheers.

-Chet

[ljm]

AS LINEMEN: Interesting idea, although it will add 1 position player to every race. (I can't see 0-2 kickers under this scenario, it's too many players!) You'd need to define new positions for certain races, however. A Zombie kicker? Not very useful. A MA4, AG2 Longbeard with Kick? Ugh.

I'll add this, even if I'm repeating myself... You could just have 0-1 (not 2)kickers per team with stats similar to 'passers' with pass skill changed to kick. If a team does not have a player with an access to pass skills, they would not get kickers either. I don't mind Chaos and some other teams not having kickers at all (and I play chaos, among others).

Simple and not too imbalancing, atleast at a first glance.

ljm