A better suggestion to improve racial variety (perpetual)

[MKL]

Against AV8 and 7 MB is always better. Against AV9 MB is better on AV rolls of 10+ (6 on 36 results).

(...)
BTW my suggestion is what dines wrote. You can use one skill on the Av roll, and one skill on the injury roll.

Tanx DoubleSkulls, I got it wrong. Put this way it's very interesting.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

It is a MASSIVE nerf to Claw as it means no-one will ever take it because it would only take effect on 5/36 knockdowns against Av9 - narrow or what !?

blablabla
I thought they taught better maths than that at public school?

Hat tip: Doubleskulls.

"Only one of the 3 skills Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On may be used by a player in resolution of a knockdown. Which skill to use is at the discretion of the owning player's coach."

See where I got my maths from now?

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubs,
I find your suggestion very very intersting!
Will read more.
Cheers
Martin

[Chris]

I must say I am still undecided over the kill stack nerf or going with the original Galack suggestion of no modifiers to a re-rolled pile on. This then attacks piling on to weaken the combo. Does that then further weaken Orc and Dwarf teams though?

If the apocaliptic predictions about claw are true does this need to be looked at alongside the other mutations?

Of course there is also the nuclear option. If you want blood in Blood Bowl change piling on to be if you choose to use it the opponents armour is reduced to 7 and have claw do something else. Would have the effect of making high armoured teams vulnerable from all quarters not just claw teams. Sequence would be roll armour dice, choose to use piling on or not (similar in that reguard to break tackle or diving tackle), then apply mghty blow or save it till the injury roll. Claw could be +1 to injury instead.

[dode74]

Would have the effect of making high armoured teams vulnerable from all quarters not just claw teams.

Thereby negating the point in having armour in the first place.

[Chris]

So currently at high tv is that not the case if there are all these claw teams running about?

[dines]

Against AV8 and 7 MB is always better. Against AV9 MB is better on AV rolls of 10+ (6 on 36 results).

Yes. All the current permutations (or at least a lot of them) are here

BTW my suggestion is what dines wrote. You can use one skill on the Av roll, and one skill on the injury roll.

Ahh then I don't think there will be massive problems with it. I guess Jimmy also understood Smeborgs suggested rulechange as I did in my previous post, where you could only pick one skill for armor and injury rolls.

[MKL]

(...)
Ahh then I don't think there will be massive problems with it. I guess Jimmy also understood Smeborgs suggested rulechange as I did in my previous post, where you could only pick one skill for armor and injury rolls.

And me too.
Smeborg's phrasing "Only one of the 3 skills Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On may be used by a player in resolution of a knockdown" is misleading, at best.

[DoubleSkulls]

It is a MASSIVE nerf to Claw as it means no-one will ever take it because it would only take effect on 5/36 knockdowns against Av9 - narrow or what !?

blablabla
I thought they taught better maths than that at public school?

Hat tip: Doubleskulls.

"Only one of the 3 skills Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On may be used by a player in resolution of a knockdown. Which skill to use is at the discretion of the owning player's coach."

See where I got my maths from now?

Doh you are quite right - I forgot you were responding to one skill for both Av/Inj and I agree that's too harsh.

[DoubleSkulls]

I must say I am still undecided over the kill stack nerf or going with the original Galack suggestion of no modifiers to a re-rolled pile on. This then attacks piling on to weaken the combo. Does that then further weaken Orc and Dwarf teams though?

It depends what you are trying to achieve and what you think the problem is. Racial diversity at high TV, at least in FUMBBL Black Box and I expect the MM TV environments in general, seems to show teams with Claw access being by far the most popular, and their lethality a big factor in that popularity. So targeting Piling On alone feels like its a bit narrow in its focus. I'm also a bit concerned that in some ways it may even exacerbate the Claw-no Claw division since it hurts teams dependent on POMB more than teams with CLPOMB access, because the CLPOMB teams can just stop at CLMB and still be as deadly (against Av7 POMB is still better), so all you end up doing is making Dwarves & Orcs less popular without affecting Chaos/Nurgle/Chaos Dwarves.

If of course you have a different objective then you may have a different answer...

[dode74]

So currently at high tv is that not the case if there are all these claw teams running about?

Only in TV-based MM.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think the numbers for the one skill for Av, one skill for Inj come out like this

Code: Select all

CLPOMB - Pile On Av
Av      St      KO      Cas
       9     14%     20%     17%
       8     17%     22%     19%
       7     23%     29%     24%

CLPOMB -  Pile On stun only
Av      St      KO      Cas
8+           10%     17%     14%
       7     16%     24%     19%

CLMB
Av      St      KO      Cas
8+           17%     13%     12%
       7     27%     17%     14%

POMB - Pile On Av
Av      St      KO      Cas
       9     13%     15%     12%
       8     18%     22%     18%
       7     23%     29%     24%

POMB - Pile On Stuns only
Av      St      KO      Cas
       9      8%     11%      9%
       8     11%     17%     13%
       7     16%     24%     19%

Comparatively current CLPOMB gets 31.67% KOs and 26.77% Cas when you Pile On if Av isn't broken, and 24.63%/20.79% where you only do stuns, so roughly speaking the 3 skill combo is about 1/3 worse.

[dode74]

Interesting. What is the optimal skill usage against each AV?

[DoubleSkulls]

Interesting. What is the optimal skill usage against each AV?

My logic was that Claw is always used on AV when applicable. MB is used if tied, and PO otherwise (for the Pile On Av). For injury I've assumed you'll always take the MB result if available - so use PO to reroll 6 or less if MB is available, 7 or less otherwise.

[plasmoid]

OK - for a minute there I was really liking the looks of this.
Then I took a 2nd look, and now I'm not so thrilled.

The numbers first:
When considering AV7 players, this rule is identical to yours and Galaks earlier rewrite of Piling On. And to me, the result is the same. Piling On + Mighty Blow is currently, IMO, too devastating against AV7 teams. Removal (KO+cas) rate is 32.5% (if you factor in a 55% chance to knock down). The suggested rule(s) cuts this back to 29.3% - and, again IMO, this number isn't low enough.

I also still think that AV9 players will be getting too good a deal - even better than the numbers - because piling on an AV9 player, when that removes all other modifiers, is going to be a rare event. Go prone and try to roll a 'straight 6' isn't exactly tempting.

Reading your recent reply to Chris also got me thinking:

Racial diversity at high TV, at least in FUMBBL Black Box and I expect the MM TV environments in general, seems to show teams with Claw access being by far the most popular, and their lethality a big factor in that popularity. So targeting Piling On alone feels like its a bit narrow in its focus.

I'm not sure the conclusion is that straightforward.
ClPoMB is extremely powerful. Some would say broken.
But claw isn't broken on it's own.
Neither is ClMB.
So, even though all those claw teams are hugely popular, that doesn't mean that claw in itself is broken. But those are the only teams with access to the 3-part combo - and the combo is the problem.

You might even go on to say that POMB against AV7 is the problem. Access to Claw lets you open that can of whupass on everyone. Nerf PiOn and you'll see the effect, whether you're piling on orcs or elfs.

Cheers
Martin