Underworld advice

[DoubleSkulls]

Two Heads & Big Hand is a game winning combo IMO. With two heads you can walk through nearly any defensive line. I'm not sure extra arms is really worth it though, I'd be more tempted by Sure Feet & Sprint TBH.

[Dzerards]

Smeborg- I like the idea of guard on the s/vermin but I'm afraid that's where there development would end. I've found on other teams that the guard pieces never end up hitting and just end up moving around for the assist. How do you use them?

I don't really see Guard as being a detriment to development in this case. With only 6 Skaven the SVs are going to be pulling their weight in the TD department. Mainly because they're more likely to consistently make it back on to the pitch for the second half compared to their AV 7 mates!

As for how to use them, in Smeborg's system I imagine the Horns/Wrestle Linerats would be doing the most of the blitzing on both offence and defence, and with Horns won't need a lot of assists (although that ratio might decrease once the SVs get Claw-MB). Defensively having 3 Guards in the team makes them a lot tougher. On offence the 2 SV Guards, working close together, would maximise the Troll's 3 die blocks while the Troll's Guard allows the SV to block themselves free of TZs most turns.

On the whole you never want to end a turn with a Skaven in an opposition player's TZ. Having a number of Guard players makes that job a whole lot easier.

Wrestle on the Gobbos is far superior to Block. Unlike on a pure stunty team (or Lizardman team) where having a Blodge ball carrier is gold, the Skaven do most of the BC duties here. Combined with Two Heads and Horns, Wrestle gives increased odds of taking down a player or popping the ball free compared with Block.

I think 3 RRs plus Leader is best from a cost perspective as well. With so many built in skills I've found myself not using all 3 RRs in a half never mind 4. Actually, thinking back, I've used them on the Loner Troll on more than one occasion on turns 7 and 8, just to use them up! Having an extra 50k to spend/deny on inducements more than makes up for the skill slot used on a Thrower.

[Smeborg]

Interesting strategy. One question I had: Why would you not think about developing at least one goblin with 2 heads, big hand for retrieving the ball from tight spots?

I find that few Gobbos with skills survive. Typically I will have 2 or 3 skilled Gobbos on the team, occasionally 4. I have never got a Gobbo to his 4th skill advance, although a lucky few have made it to 3. By contrast, all the positional players have little difficulty getting to 4 or 5 skill advances.

Because of their short lifespan, I prefer a "generalist" (i.e. single build) development strategy for Gobbos. 2-Heads, Horns, Sidestep is my preferred build, Wrestle on doubles. The ability to blitz from crazy angles is important, it can easily lead to crowd-surfs that the opponent is not expecting, as well as threatening the ball at most times. As the Skaven players fly into the dugout, the Gobbos become the positional players, so as the game goes on, the ability to blitz at ST3 becomes rather important.

I well understand the attraction of 2-Heads, Big Hand; in practice I have been content with a RR to pick up the ball with a 2-Heads Gobbo in 1 or 2 tackle zones. Another way of looking at it would be to say that I prioritise popping the ball loose over picking it up once it is on the ground.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg- I like the idea of guard on the s/vermin but I'm afraid that's where there development would end. I've found on other teams that the guard pieces never end up hitting and just end up moving around for the assist. How do you use them?

You need to make the effort to give occasional TDs to the S-Vermin until they get to their second skill (M-Blow), after which they carry on skilling up OK from CAS.

The Guard is very handy on offense, you do not have to form a guarded cage on turn 1, you have the option to hang back with the ball and form a guarded cage on turn 2. If you want to form a guarded cage on turn 1, you can usually do so without difficulty, including blocks and a blitz by the 3 can-opener players (Troll, S-Vermin), if that suits the game. Normally. of course, a horned Linerat takes the blitz for me.

On defense, Guard protects the team, and converts a lot of 1-die blocks into 2-dice (or uphill blocks to 1-die). Makes a big difference in my experience, with this otherwise under-weight team. With Guard, they start to punch above their weight.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

On the whole you never want to end a turn with a Skaven in an opposition player's TZ. Having a number of Guard players makes that job a whole lot easier.

I find you cannot systematically stand-off with the Underworld. You can do it when appropriate, but you also have to be prepared to mark multiple players with all the AV7 players (even Gobbos) when you are attacking the ball. Losing players to the dugout is the price you pay for a good attack on the ball. It's a do or die, death or glory strategy, which I find suits this team well.

[Smeborg]

One thing I forgot to mention is the Throw-Team-Mate strategy for this team. Because of their MA7 Throwers with Sure Hands (and X-Arms later), Underworld have perhaps the best one-turn TD chance of any TTM team.

However, a lot of rolls are involved, so for the tactic to work, you really need a Team Re-roll in hand. So sometimes if you are getting mashed by a bash team doing an 8-turn grind, it pays to keep that RR in hand. Subject only to ball and Gobbo scatter rolls, chances of success are surprisingly high, perhaps 3 in 8. Quite a get out of jail card. The beauty of it is that you do not require a full complement of players on the pitch, so it can work on turn 16 against a killer team.

[Jeremiah Kool]

Nice info here , also liked the 3DieBlock podcast . I plan on playing UW next TT-season . Maybe tournament ,too .

If a goblin rolls a double I also like guard together with two heads.

[greymurphy42]

I have tried ClawPOMB directly on the Storm Vermin, and another system, which worked much, much better:

W/Troll: Claw, Guard, S-Firm, Tentacles (Block, Tackle on doubles)

S/Vermin: Guard, M-Blow, Claw, Tackle

Thrower1: Block, KoRet, X-Arms, Accurate
Thrower2: Leader, Block, X-Arms, Tackle

Linerat 1: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle, 2-Heads
Linerat 2: Kick, Wrestle, Tackle, Horns

All Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns, Sidestep (Wrestle on doubles)

Guard is very important on this team, it would appear. It makes their blocking game much more powerful and dynamic, as well as protecting them. Kick is very important too. Ditto KoRet. I have found 3 RR + Leader to be just right.

In a league, I start with all positionals, 5 Gobbos, 3RRs and the Apothecary. All you need to do after that is buy Gobbos (up to the full roster if your league is killy). As well as starting with the Apoth, I use him only on the 7 positional players - this keeps them in good health. You have to learn to lose Gobbos with skills. Because they die fast, I go for a single build on the Gobbos. I do not go for fouling skills or a fouling strategy, as this is generally counter-productive (you need to keep players in the game).

Dodge is the obvious doubles choice on the Skaven players, Wrestle on the Gobbos. +MA is outstanding on the Throwers and Linerats. I would consider +AV on the S/Vermin and Gobbos if I were to roll a 6+4.

I play an aggressive counter-attacking game on defense, this suits the team well. They will often go into the lead, but to be fair, they cannot always protect that lead due to loss of players. They are an entertaining do or die team, and I would suggest are somewhat better in performance than they are cracked up to be.

That is the outline of what, for me, has been a quite successful system. Hope it helps.

You decided not to go with what you were planning in the other Underworld thread then? May I ask the reason why?

You said on 26 July 2010...

"The changes from my strategy this season (which is working fine) are:

- Forget "team" skills (Leader, Kick, K-Ret). Go instead for "universal" skills (don't worry about who's in the dugout).
- Aim to build more "can-openers" (4 will put the fear of Nuffle in most opponents).
- Get 6 Skaven with Block ASAP, and plenty of early Tackle (second skill on 4 players).
- Develop the Throwers as Blockers/Bltzers rather than Runners (rely more on the S-Hands, Pass that they come with).
- Develop the Linerats in the same way as the above Throwers (Horns or Claw as 3rd skill being the main question).
- Give Wrestle to the Gobbos (not the Linerats). Don't expect any skilled Gobbo to have a long life. Just try to make it a happy one.
- Take +1AV on a 6,4 for all players (and on a 5,5 for the S-Vermin). Plenty of AV penetrations are on failed dodges.
- Forget Dodge on the Skaven. Up the stakes instead with M-Blow

[Smeborg]

I have tried ClawPOMB directly on the Storm Vermin, and another system, which worked much, much better:

W/Troll: Claw, Guard, S-Firm, Tentacles (Block, Tackle on doubles)

S/Vermin: Guard, M-Blow, Claw, Tackle

Thrower1: Block, KoRet, X-Arms, Accurate
Thrower2: Leader, Block, X-Arms, Tackle

Linerat 1: Wrestle, Horns, Tackle, 2-Heads
Linerat 2: Kick, Wrestle, Tackle, Horns

All Gobbos: 2-Heads, Horns, Sidestep (Wrestle on doubles)

Guard is very important on this team, it would appear. It makes their blocking game much more powerful and dynamic, as well as protecting them. Kick is very important too. Ditto KoRet. I have found 3 RR + Leader to be just right.

In a league, I start with all positionals, 5 Gobbos, 3RRs and the Apothecary. All you need to do after that is buy Gobbos (up to the full roster if your league is killy). As well as starting with the Apoth, I use him only on the 7 positional players - this keeps them in good health. You have to learn to lose Gobbos with skills. Because they die fast, I go for a single build on the Gobbos. I do not go for fouling skills or a fouling strategy, as this is generally counter-productive (you need to keep players in the game).

Dodge is the obvious doubles choice on the Skaven players, Wrestle on the Gobbos. +MA is outstanding on the Throwers and Linerats. I would consider +AV on the S/Vermin and Gobbos if I were to roll a 6+4.

I play an aggressive counter-attacking game on defense, this suits the team well. They will often go into the lead, but to be fair, they cannot always protect that lead due to loss of players. They are an entertaining do or die team, and I would suggest are somewhat better in performance than they are cracked up to be.

That is the outline of what, for me, has been a quite successful system. Hope it helps.

You decided not to go with what you were planning in the other Underworld thread then? May I ask the reason why?

You said on 26 July 2010...

"The changes from my strategy this season (which is working fine) are:

- Forget "team" skills (Leader, Kick, K-Ret). Go instead for "universal" skills (don't worry about who's in the dugout).
- Aim to build more "can-openers" (4 will put the fear of Nuffle in most opponents).
- Get 6 Skaven with Block ASAP, and plenty of early Tackle (second skill on 4 players).
- Develop the Throwers as Blockers/Bltzers rather than Runners (rely more on the S-Hands, Pass that they come with).
- Develop the Linerats in the same way as the above Throwers (Horns or Claw as 3rd skill being the main question).
- Give Wrestle to the Gobbos (not the Linerats). Don't expect any skilled Gobbo to have a long life. Just try to make it a happy one.
- Take +1AV on a 6,4 for all players (and on a 5,5 for the S-Vermin). Plenty of AV penetrations are on failed dodges.
- Forget Dodge on the Skaven. Up the stakes instead with M-Blow

Simple answer, greymurphy: it was the second strategy (the changed one) which failed. It was the first strategy which was successful (early Guard, early team skills, Wrestle etc.). I am repeating the successful strategy this season in a semi-scheduled tabletop league, and hope to do well. Started with a 2-1 win over Orcs, including a TD by a thrown Gobbo. Cas count 2-3, even without Claw!

[Jimmy Fantastic]

KoRet and X-Arms suck in the extreme.

[Smeborg]

KoRet and X-Arms suck in the extreme.

That is not my experience, Jimmy. I do not take these skills on all teams, but on the right team they are outstanding skills.

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

X-Arms I must say I've never taken. I've seen it as a v.late skill on ball runners for chaos/underworld/nurgle (see, on topic!), if they don't double. Usually, I see it as block/sure-hands/2-heads/x-arms. It's not *that* bad a skill, but it's questionable whether either of those teams need a dedicated ball handler. I think if you had a lot of elves, and a shallow kick and failed 3+ pickup would stuff you (entirely possible with multiple ag 5 leapers), it's probably just about worth it.

On Underworld, I think I'd prefer leader or tackle to x-arms. I think they've got the speed to benefit from it, and they are unlikely to get caught in their own backfield like a slow basher would if they drop it.

KoR, only 2 players I like it on are dwarf runners and Khemri thro-ra's. Both need to get into the middle of a slow moving cage, so those initial 3 squares can decide where they can make their grind start from.

[Ullis]

X-Arms I must say I've never taken. I've seen it as a v.late skill on ball runners for chaos/underworld/nurgle (see, on topic!), if they don't double. Usually, I see it as block/sure-hands/2-heads/x-arms. It's not *that* bad a skill, but it's questionable whether either of those teams need a dedicated ball handler.

On Underworld, I think I'd prefer leader or tackle to x-arms. I think they've got the speed to benefit from it, and they are unlikely to get caught in their own backfield like a slow basher would if they drop it.

I've found Extra Arms really useful for Underworld on one of the throwers. Giving it to both is probably too much. Three reasons:

1. It changes a 1 in 9 chance of fail to 1 in 36 for ball pick ups. If the kick goes deep, then my Accurate thrower without X-arms picks up. If shallow, then my X-arms thrower picks up.
2. It gives a reliable receiver. When your game starts going down the toilet, then you will need that receiver.
3. In many cases it's as good as Big Hand would be on a rat.

In short, it adds a lot of reliability to the team and combos well with Sure Hands.

I'd especially like to stress point 1. I think the greatest thing that makes humans a bit of a bad team is the fact that they can never get reliable ball handling unless someone rolls +AG.

[Smeborg]

I take X-Arms as a middle or late skill on the Pestigor Runner on the Nurgle team (if I don't get +AG first, of course).

On Underworld I like X-Arms as a middle or late skill on both Throwers, for example:

Block, K-Ret, X-Arms on one
Leader, Block, X-Arms on 'tother

Of course, in practice, doubles and stat increases will intervene, so X-Arms may be the 4th skill. Bear in mind also that it is not uncommon for one of the Throwers to be lurking in the dugout - 2 skills does not represent redundancy in the case of a squishy team like the Underworld.

If both Throwers have X-Arms, and one has Accurate as well, this gives the possibility of a relatively safe double play (hand-off at 2+, pass at 2+). This can be very powerful late in the game or against tough opposition where the ball carrier needs to hang back for a turn or two.

The difference in reliability between a 1/9 chance of failing a pickup and 1/36 is great. Even worse, in pouring rain it is 1/4 vs. 1/9. X-Arms brings some of the ball-handling reliability of an AG4 team to the Underworld.

I agree that Tackle is also a good late skill on the Underworld Throwers (helps with defense and for running plays on offense). 2-Heads is also good as a late skill.

All the best.

[Hitonagashi]

Mmm, I never put a rat in the dugout. You are desperately short on ST 3 on the pitch as it is...seems suicidal to bench one of your stronger players.

I agree that X-Arms is a good skill on throwers...I just prefer a) Leader (70k rr's dropping to 20k? That's a free babe!), b) Tackle - my throwers play sweeper, as if they pop it, they've a good chance of picking it up.

I suppose, with any race, I'm always of the opinion that defense is more important than offense. I'm very wary of skills that are pure offense (and X-A 99% of the time is, as my ballpickerupers on defense are 2 headed big hand gobbos). You have a team of movement 7 players and 2 headed stunties...scoring should not be a problem for you, pretty much regardless of the situation. Stalling is more tricky, but X-Arms doesn't help with that. It's a good skill, but I'd still go - block, (dodge on a double), leader, 2 heads, tackle on one, and block, tackle, 2 heads, X-arms on the other.

I don't think you need K-ret with MV 7 players..