Do you get rid of -ag Orc Blitzers?

[Smeborg]

MattDakka and Hitogonashi - I don't disagree on the subject of TV bloat. However, there is a certain logic or direction to Runejack's roster, which, if it works in his league, should perhaps be encouraged rather than dismissed. I have played against high performing Orc rosters which have included well developed Throwers (e.g. AG4, Accurate, S-Arm, S-Throw etc.) or lots of +MA (e.g. all 4 Blitzers with MA7). No doubt you can argue that such players represent TV bloat, but in practice they worked very well in their environments.

All the best.

[dode74]

I liked running with 2 Orc throwers. It allowed me to put the Strong Arm, Accurate, KOR player in the backfield and set up with 10 forward. That player would get the ball on turn 1 and then pass to the AG4 thrower who was nearer the LOS. This put the ball well forward early on and securely caged, meaning that I had less ground to make up per turn in order to grind the cage forward. The rearmost thrower followed up the cage and provided covering TZs as required. TV bloat? In MM, sure, but in a league it worked fine.

[MattDakka]

I would like to play in a league with you and watch your orc-tastic passing plays in action.
-If you pass often, you are using your skills but you are risking to lose the ball and a turnover each time you do it (and this is bad);
-if you don't pass often you are wasting TV which would be better spent in other skills more commonly used such as Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Guard, Frenzy, Juggernaut etc. and this is bad too.
Passing the ball around is nice, but without causing CAS Orcs struggle to advance, so even if you cage near the LOS there is still the problem to move onwards, and in my experience that is easier when you remove/have removed some opponent players by bashing.

[Smeborg]

I would like to play in a league with you and watch your orc-tastic passing plays in action.

Hi Matt. I am not an Orc coach, I am commenting based on the performance of other coaches in my league(s). And I don't just mean passing plays, I mean the potential speed and security of ball movement in an otherwise slow and clumsy team. Not to mention the ability to turn the ball over yourself, or to exploit the situation when you do.

I don't want to overstate the case, but I think there are big differences based on environment (principally in the mix of opponents faced). If you face many teams with the ability to attack the caged ball directly, then your team is at a disadvantage if it has only one reliable method of scoring (running) and winning the game (2-1 grind). If you face few such opposing teams (e.g. you play in a "bash-heavy" league), then on the other hand it may pay to play and develop the team solely for the 2-1 grind, with an emphasis on lean TV. Just my observations.

All the best.

[MattDakka]

I would like to play in a league with you and watch your orc-tastic passing plays in action.

Hi Matt. I am not an Orc coach, I am commenting based on the performance of other coaches in my league(s). And I don't just mean passing plays, I mean the potential speed and security of ball movement in an otherwise slow and clumsy team. Not to mention the ability to turn the ball over yourself, or to exploit the situation when you do.

I don't want to overstate the case, but I think there are big differences based on environment (principally in the mix of opponents faced). If you face many teams with the ability to attack the caged ball directly, then your team is at a disadvantage if it has only one reliable method of scoring (running) and winning the game (2-1 grind). If you face few such opposing teams (e.g. you play in a "bash-heavy" league), then on the other hand it may pay to play and develop the team solely for the 2-1 grind, with an emphasis on lean TV. Just my observations.

All the best.

Hi Smeborg!
Actually the sentence of mine you quoted was directed to Dode, not you. My fault.
I can reply to you anyway:
a bash team focussed on bashing tends to be better than a bash team not focussed on bashing (oh, really? );
Orcs' bashing is way better than Orcs' passing, so if you invest some of your TV in passing skills then you reduce your bashing potential, thus making your team weaker at bashing and mediocre at passing (because Orcs are not Elves, they lack Movement, AG 4/Catch for a proper passing game).
By the way, in a not bash-heavy league I wouldn't mess around with passing (unless in desperation mode), because not-bashing teams (especially agile ones) can capitalize easily failed passes and fumbles.
I don't want to impose my view but just trying to explain it.

.

[mattgslater]

I see passing as an emergency option for Orcs. Doesn't necessarily take two Throwers, but for a slow team, sometimes a redirect to an AG4 player to reposition the cage and corral defenders can save a drive, not to mention possibly doing some damage by locking defenders into the crook of your position. Only costs 20k and one AV point, given that you'd take Sure Hands and the AG buff anyway and are just paying for Accurate.

[MattDakka]

I see passing as an emergency option for Orcs. Doesn't necessarily take two Throwers, but for a slow team, sometimes a redirect to an AG4 player to reposition the cage and corral defenders can save a drive, not to mention possibly doing some damage. Only costs 20k and one AV point, given that you'd take Sure Hands and the AG buff anyway and are just paying for Accurate.

I agree about passing being an emergency option.
Passes with AG 3 and Accurate may go wrong quite easily, I rarely pass even with an AG 4 thrower and Accurate.
I would bother to make a passing thrower only if he got +1 AG, otherwise I would follow the usual "ball carrier" route (Block, Leader, Kick Off Return, Tackle).

[dode74]

I would like to play in a league with you and watch your orc-tastic passing plays in action.
-If you pass often, you are using your skills but you are risking to lose the ball and a turnover each time you do it (and this is bad);
-if you don't pass often you are wasting TV which would be better spent in other skills more commonly used such as Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle, Guard, Frenzy, Juggernaut etc. and this is bad too.
Passing the ball around is nice, but without causing CAS Orcs struggle to advance, so even if you cage near the LOS there is still the problem to move onwards, and in my experience that is easier when you remove/have removed some opponent players by bashing.

I'm sure there are a few replays on BBManager if you want to take a look. My Orcs were pretty successful until I got bored and rerolled them
- Yes, it's a risk. Everything in BB is a risk, and making the pass while I have the backfield covered by my forward players mitigates a lot of that risk. It was particularly effective against fast teams who would otherwise take advantage of Kick and flood the backfield. It failed at times, of course, but that's the game.
- Of course Orcs are far better at bash - I didn't say otherwise. There were 9 other players (4 BOBs, 4 Blitzers and a Troll) which were all very good at it and carried it out with aplomb
Having the ball up at the LOS early also meant I didn't have to cover the backfield with my bashing players, meaning I could get into contact more quickly and increase my bash potential.

It might not be "TV-optimal" (what is, and does that really matter in a league?) but it was fun

[Smurf]

Doubles on an orc thrower: Sure Feet and Sprint.

That will shock the opponent as this guy moves around quickly.

For now consider you have a spare thrower

[mattgslater]

I see passing as an emergency option for Orcs. Doesn't necessarily take two Throwers, but for a slow team, sometimes a redirect to an AG4 player to reposition the cage and corral defenders can save a drive, not to mention possibly doing some damage. Only costs 20k and one AV point, given that you'd take Sure Hands and the AG buff anyway and are just paying for Accurate.

I agree about passing being an emergency option.
Passes with AG 3 and Accurate may go wrong quite easily, I rarely pass even with an AG 4 thrower and Accurate.
I would bother to make a passing thrower only if he got +1 AG, otherwise I would follow the usual "ball carrier" route (Block, Leader, Kick Off Return, Tackle).

??? AG3+Acc = 2+ QP. How far do you really need to move the ball to redirect the cage? Really, having had +AG on Accurate Throwers before, I can tell you that the ability to make 35/36 short passes is only a little better than the attendant ability to run up an assist and QP. That is, each is an occasionally-awesome, but probably-riskier-than-warranted (even if it's only on snakes) play that comes up like one game in ten but breaks the game when it does... one way or the other. The odds favor you, and successful redirects with Orcs are both hard to pull off and absolutely devastating (comes with a free corral), so it's better with Orcs than with a faster team.

I don't like Leader on my Throwers. They don't see the pitch on defense very much, even on just a 12-man squad. AV9, you know? I tend to go Block - KOR - Fend - Accurate, but back before Fend and KOR existed, it was Block - Accurate.

[Hitonagashi]

I should really be more clear...I agree with Smeborg and Dode in that a passing play can be useful for orcs.

If it's a deep kick, and you have a +AG blitzer, it's not a bad emergency alternative for the little TV you put on it.

What I do complain about is running TWO throwers. To my mind, there's 0 point in having two throwers, both with Strong Arm/Accurate. Only one can make the pass in the first place! KOR on one thrower is much better than having two players for it.

Hence why I said sack one of the throwers (not both). Fine, he likes throwing with one. You don't need a second.

[MattDakka]

I see passing as an emergency option for Orcs. Doesn't necessarily take two Throwers, but for a slow team, sometimes a redirect to an AG4 player to reposition the cage and corral defenders can save a drive, not to mention possibly doing some damage. Only costs 20k and one AV point, given that you'd take Sure Hands and the AG buff anyway and are just paying for Accurate.

I agree about passing being an emergency option.
Passes with AG 3 and Accurate may go wrong quite easily, I rarely pass even with an AG 4 thrower and Accurate.
I would bother to make a passing thrower only if he got +1 AG, otherwise I would follow the usual "ball carrier" route (Block, Leader, Kick Off Return, Tackle).

??? AG3+Acc = 2+ QP. How far do you really need to move the ball to redirect the cage? Really, having had +AG on Accurate Throwers before, I can tell you that the ability to make 35/36 short passes is only a little better than the attendant ability to run up an assist and QP. That is, each is an occasionally-awesome, but probably-riskier-than-warranted (even if it's only on snakes) play that comes up like one game in ten but breaks the game when it does... one way or the other. The odds favor you, and successful redirects with Orcs are both hard to pull off and absolutely devastating (comes with a free corral), so it's better with Orcs than with a faster team.

I don't like Leader on my Throwers. They don't see the pitch on defense very much, even on just a 12-man squad. AV9, you know? I tend to go Block - KOR - Fend - Accurate, but back before Fend and KOR existed, it was Block - Accurate.

Quick pass only? Then why bother with a thrower with Accurate? You might likely run the ball and hand it off. A developed thrower should pass the ball further than a Quick pass to have a reason to be on the team.
Not to mention that MA 5 makes him slow, so I doubt that you can just Quick pass in many situations (especially the emergencies).

About Leader: I don't need 3 rrs on defence, 2 are fine while my thrower safely sits on the bench.
When I receive I have his rr, I do the same with Khemri. The 40 TV I save can be used for POMB.

[Smeborg]

Hence why I said sack one of the throwers (not both). Fine, he likes throwing with one. You don't need a second.

I suggest 2 Throwers with Kick-off Return might be quite a good option for Orcs. Covers a lot of ground against the many fast teams with Kick.

[Hitonagashi]

One MV 5 thrower with KoR can guarantee to get to the ball anywhere without GFI's. Given as both his throwers have SA/Accurate, I really doubt there's going to be much case where he can't get to the ball and not pass it clear in those emergencies...certainly not enough to justify a second thrower.

[dode74]

The problem is one of getting the ball forward and maximising your hitting power while maintaining options. Having a rear KOR thrower get the ball forward early makes the drive easier; having a lineorc or thrower catch it means you have all 8 S access players punching holes; having that catcher be a thrower means you have the opportunity to exploit those holes by moving the ball forward fast. Personally, I didn't find it to be a waste of TV.