(Un-)Living NecroTacticum: Necros vs the world of Blood Bowl

[swilhelm73]

I can't see taking strip ball early on a safety ghoul.

The skill comes into play so rarely to begin with and considering everything you want to put on the player...and his likelihood of dying, I think my build order would be something like:

Wrestle, Tackle, SS

if you get to a fourth skill you can start to consider it but honestly I've never taken strip ball (note I don't often play elves which I recognize is a different scenario). Other interesting options would be Fend and Kick.

[Cestrian]

Yeah MB is next on the Wights. The Leader was free with the league rules (he's team captain). I do have two flesh golems too (no upgrades) because I got lucky with money rolls, so a lack of strength isn't a massive problem.

I like the idea of dual role ghouls actually. Might go with that. I'd still like to have tackle on at least one though, so I suppose I could swap that with Strip Ball if I go down your suggested route. Hmmm

[neverworking]

Don't take sure hands on the agility ghoul (at least not early) its a bit redundant. Although its worth remembering that if you use a re-roll early in the turn the ag3 SH ghoul becomes the safer pick up choice than tha ag4 ghoul. You should also consider using them both as ball carriers so that they both gain SPPs, you can always hand off to the AG4 ghoul if you the ag3 one is truly stuck in. For the agility ghoul I would take block and side step for my next two skills. Kickoff return isn't particularly necessary when you have 2 reliable ball retrievers.

I once had a wrestle/block ghoul (on an undead)...but not really by design. I had taken wrestle and he later rolled an ag bump which often made him my best ball carrier so I felt block was needed. While it was probably wise in that situation I always hated the bloat of it. In this case you have something similar but in reverse, but I think there are better solutions than adding wrestle to your block sure hands ghoul. I'd take tackle next and after that I think you'd be free to choose SS or DT,.

I have had the wrestle, tackle, strip ball ghoul too, but again on an undead team where the additional ghouls allow you to specialize a little bit more. It was effective however not so effective that I would recommend it for use in on a necro team unless you play in a league largely void of sure handed players. I think the block ghoul would be better off going tackle then side step and if he miraculously lasts diving tackle or strip ball.

[mattgslater]

I'm always for Block over Sure Hands, and in this case I don't think it's any different. But I'd give this guy SH at 31 over, say, Side Step or Tackle. The reason I don't think it's bad to build AV7 carriers is that Ghouls have a short life expectancy, and it's nice to have a backup carrier. If one goes out, you aren't hosed.

Tackle on the SH Ghoul is okay, I can see it. I guess there's nothing really wrong with making him a sweeper/sacker who also has Block/SH. In that case, I'd still advise Side Step or Strip Ball over Wrestle at 51 SPP should he somehow live that long.

[Cestrian]

I'm always for Block over Sure Hands, and in this case I don't think it's any different. But I'd give this guy SH at 31 over, say, Side Step or Tackle. The reason I don't think it's bad to build AV7 carriers is that Ghouls have a short life expectancy, and it's nice to have a backup carrier. If one goes out, you aren't hosed.

Tackle on the SH Ghoul is okay, I can see it. I guess there's nothing really wrong with making him a sweeper/sacker who also has Block/SH. In that case, I'd still advise Side Step or Strip Ball over Wrestle at 51 SPP should he somehow live that long.

Yeah you're right - all this discussion and they'll probably both die in their next game!

[Digger Goreman]

Using the Samba Action Calculator, let's explore the folly of creating a passing threat using the undead teams.... For the sake of argument, let's start with the ol' chestnut of short passing vs one/two gfi's:

The format will give the ag of the passer to the ag of the catcher (i.e., ag2 ag2), then the percent of success with reroll over the percent of success without reroll (i.e., 41/17)

The question, "Is the extra dice roll worth it?" Remember that one pip on the die is worth 17%....

Quick Pass with gfi's vs Short Pass

ag2 ag2 skellie/zombie/golem/rah to skellie/zombie/golem/rah
2gfi = 41/17 ; 1gfi = 45/21 ; short = 36/17 (QP = 50/25)

ag2 ag3 skellie/zombie/golem to wight/werewolf/ghoul
2gfi = 50/23 ; 1gfi = 56/28 ; short = 44/22 (QP = 61/33)

ag2 ag4 skellie/zombie/et al to +ag catcher
2gfi= 58/29 ; 1gfi = 64/38 ; short = 51/28 (QP = 69/42)
--------------------------------------------------
ag3 ag2
2gfi = 50/23 ; 1gfi 56/28 ; short = 50/25 (QP = 61/33)

ag3 ag3
2gfi = 62/31 ; 1gfi = 68/37 ; short = 61/33 (QP = 74/44)

ag3 ag4
2gfi = 71/39 ; 1gfi = 77/46 ; short = 69/42 (QP = 83/56)
---------------------------------------------------
ag4 ag2
2gfi = 58/29 ; 1gfi = 64/35 ; short = 61/33 (QP = 69/42)

ag4 ag3
2gfi = 71/39 ; 1gfi = 77/46 ; short = 74/44 (QP = 83/56)

ag4 ag4
2gfi = 80/48 ; 1gfi = 87/58 ; short = 83/56 (QP = 93/69)

Upcoming: introduction of pass and catch

[Digger Goreman]

Using the Samba Action Calculator

Quick Pass with gfi's vs Short Pass

ag2 ag2
2gfi = 41/17 ; 1gfi = 45/21 ; short = 36/17 (QP = 50/25)

ag2 ag3
2gfi = 50/23 ; 1gfi = 56/28 ; short = 44/22 (QP = 61/33)

ag2 ag4
2gfi= 58/29 ; 1gfi = 64/38 ; short = 51/28 (QP = 69/42)

--------------------------------------------------
Even with a reroll, a short pass is a crap shoot at best (51 percent success) for the ag challenged.... Skellies, zombies, golems and blitz-ras connecting with each other is unlikely in the best of circumstances.... An ag2 ball carrier is going to need an embellishment of some sort (to be explored) or at least an ag3+ receiver, reroll AND QP to eclipse the fifty-fifty mark....

Let's see how adding pass helps the equation (i.e., a throw-ra or doubles gimp thrower):
Ag2 + pass

ag2+P ag2
2gfi = 48/26 ; 1gfi = 52/31 ; short = 42/28 (QP = 56/38)

ag2+P ag3
2gfi = 58/35 ; 1gfi = 63/42 ; short = 49/37 (QP = 67/50)

ag2+P ag4
2gfi= 65/43 ; 1gfi = 69/52 ; short = 54/46 (QP = 73/63)
------------------------------------------------------
Now let's expand this with a catcher on the other end:

ag2+P ag2+C
2gfi = 52/39 ; 1gfi = 55/47 ; short = 42/42 (QP = 56/56)

ag2+P ag3+C
2gfi = 62/46 ; 1gfi = 65/56 ; short = 49/49 (QP = 67/67)

ag2+P ag4+C
2gfi= 68/51 ; 1gfi = 71/61 ; short = 54/54 (QP = 73/73)
------------------------------------------------------

[Digger Goreman]

So, best scenario for normal undead passing is ball-in-hand Throw-ra to teammate:
Quick Pass = 56 percent (with a reroll), 38 percent without....
A regular skellie quick passes 50 percent with a reroll and 25 percent without... a Throw-ra increasing the ball-in-hand quick pass by less than half a pip....
and all of this just to advance the ball three squares... is it even worth it to throw?

[Digger Goreman]

How about a cost analysis, Throw-ra vs regular skellie:

40k Skeleton 5-3-2-7 Regen, Thick Skull
vs
70k Throw-ra 6-3-2-7 Regen, Pass, Sure Hands

For the sake of this argument, let us assume the cost is based on a scenario using all the skills possible in passing a ball going from short to quick range with both attempting to pick up the ball from the ground and the skellie needing one more gfi than the TR due to movement, with both passing to a standard skeleton teammate....

Samba Action Calculator
Skellie = 25/9 (success with and without a reroll)
Throw-ra = 39/23 (success with and without a reroll)

So 30k in cost is getting you just less than one pip in action.... Neither is really a successful thrower.... Matt says the Khemri are a "thinking man's team", but were the decision makers even thinking when they made the Khemri? One can only postulate.... Indeed, the throw-ra's sure hands only help out when you are out of rerolls for the turn or need to save one for further actions.... I guess that's worth 30k?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I don't know why you have gone on one about Khemri in a Necro thread... but yeah Khemri and even AG3 teams suck at passing. I think(hope) we all know that.
The thro-ra is worth the 30k TV purely for his surehands and MA, which you would like on a Skeleton ballcarrier if you did not have a thro-ra.

[Digger Goreman]

Originally it was an undead vs thread, but usually I concentrate on Necros and, though there is no need to keep up with me, I do keep all the undead teams in my cramped yet organized bag.... Also, this is a mathematical excursion, many gracious thanks to Samba, to not only prove what we assume, but to also explore the actual opportunity costs of getting around the passing game.... Not only that, but it is nice to know your percentages in those desperate moments, before or after you took the action....

[mattgslater]

Well, to be sure an AG3 Thrower will use his Pass skill over the course of his career. He could even get a skill to augment it without looking like a chump, especially on a team with real catcher-types, like Humans. Khemri are extra-bad in a way AG3 teams with Throwers aren't. Not only is the Thrower worse at throwing, but there's nobody to catch. Pass and P access on the Human Thrower is basically a pot-sweetener ("You want Sure Hands on a lino, don't you? No? How about now?"), while on the Khemri, it's an atavism (and a shot at Leader). Even +AG doesn't save the passer track for a Thro-Ra, 'cause there's still nobody to catch. (You take it with glee, but he's still a carrier.)

[Digger Goreman]

Using the Samba Action Calculator....

Quick Pass with gfi's vs Short Pass
Undead Pass on doubles or +ag on throw-ra
--------------------------------------------------
ag3+P ag2
2gfi = 57/31 ; 1 gfi 62/37 ; short = 56/38 (QP = 67/44)

ag3+P ag3
2gfi = 69/41 ; 1gfi = 74/49 ; short = 67/50 (QP = 79/59)

ag3+P ag4
2gfi = 77/51 ; 1gfi = 82/62 ; short = 73/63 (QP = 86/74)
---------------------------------------------------
Quick Pass with gfi's vs Short Pass
Undead Pass on doubles (catch on receiver) or +ag on throw-ra (doubles catch on receiver)

ag3+P ag2+C
2gfi = 62/46 ; 1 gfi 65/56 ; short = 56/56 (QP = 67/67)

ag3+P ag3+C
2gfi = 73/55 ; 1gfi = 77/66 ; short = 67/67 (QP = 79/79)

ag3+P ag4+C
2gfi = 80/60 ; 1gfi = 84/72 ; short = 73/73 (QP = 86/86)

[Digger Goreman]

With the numbers available, let's see about turning a wight into a dedicated passer.... The tale is not the best as even with a dedicated catcher on the receiving end, the best you can do is get 77% with a passing wight... but what about a strong arm passing wight to a werewolf/goul with catch? Would 3/4 chances to 7 hex range entice you to spend 3 skills (one a double) ?

Quick Pass with gfi's vs Short Pass
--------------------------------------------------
ag3+P ag2
2gfi = 57/31 ; 1 gfi 62/37 ; short = 56/38 (QP = 67/44)

ag3+P ag3
2gfi = 69/41 ; 1gfi = 74/49 ; short = 67/50 (QP = 79/59)
---------------------------------------------------
ag3+P ag2+C
2gfi = 62/46 ; 1 gfi 65/56 ; short = 56/56 (QP = 67/67)

ag3+P ag3+C
2gfi = 73/55 ; 1gfi = 77/66 ; short = 67/67 (QP = 79/79)

[mattgslater]

Why would you do such a thing? Guard, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Piling On: you need your Wight skills!