kickers - are they worth it?

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:27 pm

How about the simple option of dropping any one position player in favour of a kicker? You want 2 Throwers? Drop a Blitzer..or a Catcher etc.
Solves any modelling problems.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:08 pm

I could live with that ... although as Chet mentioned it would mean creating stats for each race ... ie do the Undead get a kicker??? If so is it based on a Ghoul?

I think the easiest thing would be to follow the rules from the Annual, BUT allow the Kicker to replace any positional slot. Thus Undead, Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Lizardmen, Halfling, and Goblin don't have Kickers. The other 9 teams are allowed one to two Kickers based on the conversion of the team's thrower but he replaces any positional player.

Thus I could have on a High Elf team:
2 Phoenix, 2 Lion, and 2 Mule Warriors ... just joking on the Mule.

This doesn't increase the number of positional players but gives the team more options if they don't want to lose the throwers.

Sounds good to me. It also solves the modeling problem. Good idea Woody.

Galak

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:30 pm

I'm all for the rules as written. It has been mentioned that the kicking rules are "a little something extra" and not a fundamental part of the game so it does not make sense to suddenly make them a fundamental part of every team.

Throwing the ball is a much more integral part of the game yet not every team can get throwers. Kicking is far less a part of the game so I don't see why we should have more options for getting specialist kickers.

Marcus

Bevan · Post by **Bevan** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:47 pm

The aging rules require teams to plan ahead for player retirement. So you must be able to have 2 of any position, so that when one player begins to age you can start training his replacement before you actually retire the older player.

So a team that could have only 1 thrower (or 1 kicker) is severely handicapped by the aging rules. Replacing another position may not help if you only have 0-2 for all positions.

In most cases (e.g. werewolves) having 0-1 of a player position is a sure sign of an overpowered position. This doesn't apply to kickers (probably), but the aging effects do. Would it really matter if you had 0-2 Kickers instead of replacing existing positions?

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Thu Sep 12, 2002 11:30 pm

'...allow the Kicker to replace any positional slot. Thus Undead, Chaos, Chaos Dwarf, Lizardmen, Halfling, and Goblin don't have Kickers. The other 9 teams are allowed one to two Kickers based on the conversion of the team's thrower but he replaces any positional player. '

Nah... I like the suggestion of letting anyone become a kicker. Even the above teams could take kickers. Just take ANY position (linemen included) and replace their skill category with Kicking skills. If all that player had access to was General, they couldn't take General skills on non-doubles. That skink you want to make a kicker? He can't take AG skills, just kicking. Maybe you want a Chaos Warrior booter? Now he can't take strength skills, just Kicking, General, and Physical.

Now anyone can have a kicker. Some teams might simply have better starting kickers because they sacrifice a position elsewhere.

Vesticle · Post by **Vesticle** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:18 am

Am I right in reading that you can choose which direction the ball goes in, after you've rolled the distance for it? So say you went to kick a field goal and didn't get the distance... you could see that, and then decide to kick it into the corner instead?

David

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 1:24 am

Vesticle,

You have to choose the basic direction its headed, but if you blew the distance roll you could aim for the edge of the triangle range yes.

Galak

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:13 am

Extra position:
As has been said, there are enough of position players already

Replacing any position:
Dunno... wouldn't this benefit the teams with positions with player allowance of 0-4? Because of the retirement planning: they don't have to sacrifice continuity to have kickers. As there's no thrower position with 0-4 allowance, so the teams are on equal grounds there - they have to sacrifice thrower continuity to get kickers.

One more suggestion:
I've mentioned this before and it'll probably not have too much support, but what about:
roll doubles->take kick->get also kicking skill access->become a kicker.

A clean solution IMO.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:53 am

Beside from the point wether Kicker should use up a position slot or not
i have another question ...

doesn't 1d6+STR seem extreemly short for a kick ? that would mean that an average human lineman could kick the ball on an average roll, 6-7 squares .... that's pretty short - 2d6 would be far more reasonable

I know not wether you would allow the player to move with a kick action, but I would prefer a no-move kick-action that has an wider reach than an move-kick action with d6+STR reach.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 8:58 am

Relborn wrote:doesn't 1d6+STR seem extreemly short for a kick ? that would mean that an average human lineman could kick the ball on an average roll, 6-7 squares .... that's pretty short - 2d6 would be far more reasonable

I know not wether you would allow the player to move with a kick action, but I would prefer a no-move kick-action that has an wider reach than an move-kick action with d6+STR reach.

If not able to move prior to kick, very few kicks would be made, I'm afraid... one turn scoring with kick would practically disappear, taking off the main use of the rules - elimination of dead turns in the ends of the halves.

The kicking distance is small and I don't mind - it shouldn't be able to replace HMP or anything, even though in Real Life you perhaps could kick farther than that.
Let's just say that in BB players have never really learned to kick properly, and the players with Strong Leg are practically the only ones who can kick in a way that shoots the ball properly.

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:08 am

okay the option not to move might not have been the best idea, but
what about an option to choose wether you roll one or two dice before kicking (with an additional -1 malus when you take two dices for long range)

Sorry it's just my opinion but to me, it's silly if you coul throw farther than kick. BTW how would you handle the kick-off sequences at the start of a drive (can the kickers than magically kick farther ? sorry for sarcasm).

No - if you introduce kicking rolls you should also think about the kick-off rules. For some teams it is really important to make an kick into the coffin-corner (for none-footballers: close to the end-zone)

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 9:44 am

I must say that is the only thing that is bothering me at the moment about the kicking rules - making kick a "kick" skill.

Kick is the first lineman skill I buy on every team I play, my entire playing style revolves around it. Having to roll doubles to get it would be a bit of a bastard.

Suggestion:
Keep kick as a general skill
Keep other kicking skills under Kicking skill group
Keep current rules regarding swapping Throwers for Kickers.

This would mean that any team could develop a guy who could kick the ball but only people with access to Throwers could get specialty kickers.

Seems to address a majority of concerns.

Marcus

ljm · Post by **ljm** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:03 am

Ok, I'll give up on the new position player thing...

Relborn wrote: Sorry it's just my opinion but to me, it's silly if you coul throw farther than kick. BTW how would you handle the kick-off sequences at the start of a drive (can the kickers than magically kick farther ? sorry for sarcasm).

Just toying with ideas: how about a new kicking skill called Punt - similar to HMP, but with scatter similar to Kick-Offs and causing turnovers? Not as good as HMP, but kickers aren't supposed to be passers anyway.

ljm

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:15 am

I don't agree with you Marcus. If the point is to include Kickers,
then the Kick Skill should belong into the kicking-Group.

Well if your strategy won't work anymore, then you have to buy
a kicker right from the start (and I am VERY curious to hear how
the kicking rules will affect the kick-off rules)

I think we will see quite a few changes and somw will have a bit
to chew ...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:59 am

Relborn:

The ONLY change to the kickoff sequence would be that if you don't have a player not on the LOS and not in a wide zone to be the kicker for the kickoff than its an automatic touchback for the other team. That's the only change.

As for the distance now I know the rugby folks will disagree here, but we are talking about a running kick vs a stationary kick. The kickoff is stationary. The kicking rules are moving. Two very different creatures. Having different rules for them seems fine by me.

Galak

Talk Fantasy Football

kickers - are they worth it?

0-1 of any position is a bad idea

Why?