Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Smeborg]

A novel experience for me last night: Khorne vs. Halflings. I was apprehensive before the match, what with no Block, no Leader (mng), only 2 re-rolls, and just 11 players (of which 3 were journeymen, like a WE team!). My opponent had 16 players, plus Chef and Babe. However, I got a seemingly easy 2-1 win in the end (CAS: 7-0).

I got a Blitz! at the first kick-off, pressed hard, but it did no good, my opponent scored on turn 2 with a thrown 'Fling. I then executed 15 turns of grind for my 2 TDs. My opponent might have drawn with a one-turner at the death, but a juicy riot (6 of his 8 players stunned) prevented it. In both halves, I felt I did not have enough time to score more than once. Part of the reason for this was that the Bloodthirster rolled three 1s for Wild Animal when attempting break-through blitzes. The match was not without incident, notably the 'Flings sacked the caged ball 3 times with uphill blocks (but each time the ball scattered into the arms of one of my players). The Trees did little damage, I suffered 1 early KO (he never came back).

Khorne without Block/Wrestle performed much better than expected. Mainly this was because of the effectiveness of 3-die blocks with Frenzy against 'Flings (many 'Flings were put in the dugout in this way). Juggernaut helped too. I only remember having to take 1 skull (a second block with Frenzy, 1 die). The Bloodthirster was not exceptional, but he did BH a Tree late in the game. Here is the team after just 3 games:

'Thirster: M-Blow (9 SPPs)
Herald: - (0) just bought
'Letter: S-Hands (10)
'Letter: - (4)
'Letter: - (2)
'Letter: - (0)
Fighter: Leader, [-MA] (8) Faster than a Speeding Bullet is his name
Fighter: S-Hands (8)
Fighter: - (5)
Fighter: - (4) just bought, he was a Journeyman and got 2 CAS
Fighter: - (0)
Fighter: - (0)
2 RR, 3FF, Apoth, TV125

50 SPPs is a great return from 3 games (thanks in part to Stunties). "Lost" 3 SPPs to a Journeyman (he caught the bouncing ball and scored a TD). I have followed my original plan and gone with 2 S-Hands players (the 'Letter is the Runner, the Fighter will become the Thrower). Passed up a 6,4 on the Fighter (I would take +MA on any of the positional players, though). Still no Block, Wrestle, Dodge or Guard. We will see how they get on.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

I used both my Bloodletters with Blodge, Guard a lot for scoring before they had Guard. They usually were they players out of contact which could make the TD when I handed the ball off to them. Dont know if that would be necessary now with my 2 AG4 Cultists though, but it is a nice option.
I could potentially go from the 5 Guards that I have now to 7 Guarders, with the decisions I have yet to make. I will wait until I know my opponents next season before I decide.

Concerning the Bloodletters, I will try out a different route in another league (started a few weeks ago) where I also play Khorne. I was thinking about JumpUp for the Bloodletters. So far I am thinking about going Wrestle, JumpUp and then Guard. Not having Dodge might be a risk and using Wrestle instead of Block does take some use out of Juggernaut, but I wont be blitzing with them very often. JumpUp should open up a few new ways of Blocking and gives them better Movement. I should consider Dodge, but not sure at what point. So far I think by the time they reach their third skill, I will really need Guard so I would go for Dodge after that but it also makes them pretty vulnerable. What do you guys think about that?
To have some Guard I wouldnt go the Killer route in the Heralds with this team. There I would go for Block, Guard as first skills and rely on the Bloodthirster for blitzing.
I just recently decided on using the Bloodthirster this way which didnt really work out with my initial setup (was without Bloodthirster). I will get him asap. Hopefully he will perform better than the one I have in my other league

Going with Wrestle on the Bloodletters, I think I should stick with Block on the Cultists, do you agree? It is sort of an experiment, but I am curious to see how the team will perform. The league setup is pretty interesting too. Only one team of every type is allowed (+Stunty Versions). Matches are every two weeks so one season takes nearly a year. I won the first two matches (Goblins and Ogre) so must of the "fun-teams" are out of the way.

I often end up with a Bloodletter as a ballcarrier, because they stay out of contact the most so I might skill 2 of the different and without Guard. That might lead to a lack of Guard so I am not really sure about that point yet. What are your thoughts?

Hi again Nephron. I think all the player-types on this team pose development questions (with the possible exception of the Blodthirster), but the key players (or "swing producers") in terms of development seem to be the Bloodletters. I am convinced that Wrestle is the best first normal skill on the Pit Fighters, so for me there is no question of giving Wrestle to the Bloodletters. There is a slight redundancy in Wrestle+Juggernaut. But by anaolgy with other teams, if you give Wrestle to the Bloodletters, then you almost certainly should not give it to the Pit Fighters. And with Wrestle on a blitzing player, you are sort of implying S-Ball and/or Tackle later.

The main problem with the Bloodletters is that they have access to so many great skills (cooking with GAS) but start without Block. Vampires and Slann Blitzers have the same syndrome. I am inclined at the moment to give 3 of the Bloodletters: Block, Dodge, Guard to make simple, reliable supporting players. The 4th Bloodletter for me is the Runner (S-Hands, Dodge, Block). 4th and 5th skills (lots of interesting options) are a long way off in our league. Jump Up is a good skill, but it is competing with so many others.

My current thinking on most of the Pit Fighters is: Wrestle, Dauntless, Fend. They are the LoSers after all (apart from the Leader and the ahem "Thrower"). For doubles rolls I am still undecided, but I am inclining towards Dodge rather than Guard (when not blocking, the Pit Fighters seem to have a frequent desire to get out of contact). Wrestle/Dauntless seems a good combo, it magnifies the Guard of the positional players. Lots of Dodge on this team may be rather good, as well as giving protection, it would bring many good options without having to blow precious re-rolls (the blitz of the opposing ball-carrier seems often to involve a dodge first). For me Wrestle is an offensive (my turn) skill, I don't worry about how it works in my opponent's turn, that's just a "nice to have".

It looks like I will go Block, Guard on the Heralds, although I know there is a case for Block, M-Blow. Dodge on a doubles, again.

M-Blow, Guard on the Bloodthirster.

The one skill that I am finding extremely difficult to fit in on this team is Tackle. Maybe the team can do without it (my victorious Slann team last season set a precedent, going 17 games unbeaten, without ever gaining Tackle). The tournament player in me also says that teams can do just fine with some Wrestle, but no Tackle.

Hope that helps.

[MKL]

Just thinking out loud...
A collateral benefit of the Wrestle + Tackle build for pit fighters is that you maximize your chances that the first block is successful, so you don't need to take the second one.
And less blocks (especially the dangerous second blocks) means less turnover/rr.

Makes sense?

[Smeborg]

Just thinking out loud...
A collateral benefit of the Wrestle + Tackle build for pit fighters is that you maximize your chances that the first block is successful, so you don't need to take the second one.
And less blocks (especially the dangerous second blocks) means less turnover/rr.

Makes sense?

Yes, that's essentially sound reasoning. It's also why I plan to give them Dauntless as second skill (not just for blocking ST4 players, but for second blocks against such players).

The problem with Tackle (as I see it) is that these Pit Fighters live half the time on the defensive LoS, where Tackle is of little use. If they only played on offense, Wrestle+Tackle would be fine. I am aiming for a compromise between the offensive and defensive builds, and at the moment I think: Wrestle+Dauntless+Fend (Dodge on doubles) is about right.

All the best.

[dode74]

MKL - why is that any better than Block/Tackle? Frenzy doesn't apply on Both Down results, so there is no second block there either.

[Smeborg]

MKL - why is that any better than Block/Tackle? Frenzy doesn't apply on Both Down results, so there is no second block there either.

Good question, dode, I have an answer from my perspective.

The point is to reduce the number of "no result" blocks (which is what a both down result between 2 players with Block amounts to), and to maximise the chances of the Pit Fighter keeping out of contact. Pit Fighters are often in the scrum, I see one of their main jobs as being to shift opposing players (by knocking them down, pushing them away, or at least Wrestling them to the ground). This opens up the game for a more decisive blitz by one of the Horned players. Taking the Pit Fighter out of contact is handy (it can be quite easy to beat up a Khorne team if it has lots of Pit Fighters in contact).

I guess at 5 normal skills an "ideal" Pit Fighter for me would have Wrestle, Dauntless, Fend, Tackle, Pro (I am happy to debate slkill order). Block as 6th skill, perhaps, not that I expect any to get there, given that they do duty on the LoS.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

What is people's experience with casualties suffered? I note that my latest Khorne team has copped 8 CAS in 3 games. I am kind of expecting quite a lot of player turnover.

All the best.

[Nephron]

What is people's experience with casualties suffered? I note that my latest Khorne team has copped 8 CAS in 3 games. I am kind of expecting quite a lot of player turnover.

All the best.

Hi Smeborg,

I think it will get a little better with time, but having all that Frenzy does have its cost
I looked it up in my leagueteam. First season (14 matches) I got 28 CAS. In the next season I suffered 22 CAS. My team was better developed and didnt get hit quite as much, but of course the enemy team had more lethal skills. I usually have 1 player MNG.
I really dont know if a lot of CAS can be avoided. I guess going for skills like Dodge or Fend might help.

[MKL]

MKL - why is that any better than Block/Tackle? Frenzy doesn't apply on Both Down results, so there is no second block there either.

Maybe it's not. I was just answering to Smeborg's question about the second skill of a Wrestle Pit Fighter.
On the other hand, I know that, on a push/both down result, sometimes I choose push in the hope to take down that git, just to roll double skulls on the second block.
So, in a way, Wrestle can have you roll less blocks.

[Smeborg]

I looked at my current Khorne roster today and it looked strange. 4 normal skills and still no Block or Wrestle (I have M-Blow, Leader, S-Hands, S-Hands)! That alone tells me that this is a rather odd team.

I am starting to have heretical thoughts about the first doubles skill on the Bloodthirster (should I ever be so lucky). Now I well know that Block is almost certainly the best choice, however, I am starting to wonder (in secret moments when no-one is watching) if Pro might be better. My reasoning is that so many times, the success of the Khorne turn hinges on whether the Bloodthirster takes his blitz or not. And he has Jugs already...

[Smeborg]

Another enjoyable and close game last night, this time I lost 1-2 (CAS: 1-1) to Necros. The match was notable for lots of marking (by both teams). My opponent was an old and wily foe, the best coach in my division, although new to Necros. 13 players, although only 1 Wolf, against my 12 + Apoth. 5 Block against my none, and a nasty Blodge/S-Hands Ghoul.

1st drive: Khorne receive and twiddle their thumbs for 2 turns while the Bloodthirster rolls 1s. On the 3rd turn, he CAS's a Zombie (regen fails). On turn 4 he is CAS'd in turn by the Wolf (BH, Regen worked). By turn 4 it's 9 against 9, I mark 5 players and push a 4-man cage down the sideline, scoring with a dodge and 2 GFIs on turn 5. 1-0.

2nd drive: I press and force my opponent to move the ball. The Bloodthirster manages to KO a player and get into contact with the ball carrying Ghoul, but is again knocked over and KO'd (this time by a Golem). An easy hand-off score to the Necros follows. 1-1.

3rd drive: a 1-turn mash, nothing notable, the Bloodthirster fails to put anyone off the pitch (at least he comes back from KO).

2nd half, 4th drive: sadly it starts with a riot, we lose a turn. I press my opponent, forcing him to move the ball. The Bloodthirster stuns a Zombie but at the cost of being in base contact with the Wolf, who knocks him over. Although he stays on the pitch, the Bloodthirster spends 2 turns lying on his back, and is well off the play for the rest of the drive. Never mind, my lone Herald manages to sack the Blodge Ghoul (it required a 5+ dodge, no sweat). But my opponent scoops up the ball and keeps going downfield. I force him to score in 6 turns, not bad. 1-2.

5th and last drive: I have been undone by the riot, which means I have only 2 turns to score and equalise. The Bloodthirster takes a blitz, but rolls a double skulls, the Loner roll fails, losing the game. Ah well. To be fair, the best I could hope for during most of this game was a draw. However, I might have got lucky, had my opponent (say) failed a pick-up at a critical time, or similar. I did manage 1 sack, but my opponent had local superiority.

As you can see, Khorne are quite good at forcing the opponent to score before they want to. Of course they also cannot hold the ball. This dynamic made for yet another wild and close-fought game. Congratulations to the designers. Both teams managed to just keep 11 players on the pitch for every drive, but there were quite a few stuns by both teams, so it felt like a reduced version of the game at times. With many 1 on 1 situations, the superior blitz-power of Khorne was evident. I neutralised the Golems simply by marking them with Pit Fighters. The superior speed of the Ghouls and Wolf were much in evidence, I was lucky to be only facing 1 Wolf.

An indifferent performance by the Bloodthirster, twice consigned to the dugout, 2 turns lying on his back, and 2 turns rolling 1s at the start (plus he lost the game at the death). But along the way he got a CAS, a KO and a couple of stuns to help keep his team in the hunt.

[Smeborg]

LESSONS FROM THE LAST MATCH
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Pit Fighters man-marking Golems (and their ilk) seems very typical, plus they do duty on the defensive LoS. This confirms my belief that Wrestle+Dauntless+Fend (or similar) is a good way to go for them.

It is rather common to dodge before taking a blitz, and repositioning at the end of the turn often requires a dodge. This re-inforces my view that Dodge is a rather good skill on the team (second skill on the Bloodletters, first doubles skill on the Heralds and Pit Fighters).

I only used 3 or 4 RRs (IIRC) in the game. Maybe I got lucky, but maybe 2RRs + Leader is enough for this team (it is too early to tell with confidence). I feel my risk prioritisation is getting better.

Perhaps I need to protect the Bloodthirster a bit, given that he is of little use in the dugout or when sunbathing. However, this is easier said than done, he is no shrinking violet. He draws quite a lot of attention, e.g. 3 assists + the blitz, which can bring obvious positional benefits.

The team played well despite no Block or Wrestle (vs. 5 Block). Quite interesting that, I think Khorne coaches should not be overawed by such situations. I have a Block player now (woohoo!), a Bloodletter.

I am wondering if there is a place for M-Blow on the Bloodletters. Probably not, but worth a thought. I use them to take the quiet blocks on the LoS, these would be a bit less quiet with M-Blow.

Hope that's of interest. All the best.

[Fassbinder75]

From my own Necro perspective, Golems are tremendous against slow-caging sides and next to useless against everyone else. You're doing a great job selling the fun factor of the Khorne side BTW.

[Smeborg]

ANOTHER FINE SHOWING FROM THE BLOODTHIRSTER.
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In the first half, he was Stunned and then K.O.d by a foul (from pansy Elves). But he came back from K.O. and really hit his straps in the second half:

5 turns he rolled 1 for Wild Animal when attempting to blitz
1 turn he failed a move action (4+)
1 turn he successfully took a move action (4+), his only successful turn of the half
1 turn (the last) he successfully took a blitz (2+) only to roll a triple skull (re-roll already used)

Words fail.

[Fassbinder75]

Well you can take heart that unless he is killed, he is unlikely to have a game that bad ever again.