Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[spubbbba]

Mass frenzy is very much a 2 edged sword and its usefulness largely depends on your opposition.

Against a weaker coach with a team you can outmuscle it will be a huge advantage with all those extra hits. But against a stronger coach it will be your undoing, especially if they have a high AV, high ST and mass guard team like Orcs. Whilst khorne look to be great at blitzing their blocking game is IMO weaker than a team like humans since they have 4 less block players and frenzy limits your choices in a messy scrum.

[Smeborg]

Has anyone mentioned Strip Ball for a herald/letter or two? Horns+Jugs+StripBall sounds like a complete nightmare to try to deal with.

Yes, I think I mentioned it somewhere. The "problem", if such it is, is that there are many skills crying out to be taken by the Heralds and Bloodletters. I am inclined to take Tackle (3rd or 4th skill on the Heralds, 2nd on the Pit Fighters) with the hope of knocking down Blodge ball carriers, rather than leaving them on their feet. I acknowledge that Frenzy/Horns/Jugs/S-Ball is very, very powerful. But in practice, knocking down players who lack Blodge seems easy for this team, it's not difficult to get 4,6,8 or even 10 dice of blocks on an opponent when you need to. I can only recall 1 occasion in 3 matches when I failed to knock down an exposed ball carrier (a Wight, I blitzed him with a Herald, 6 dice including RR, got only pushes, but left him in 2 TZs). I got him the following turn. The Bloodletters seem to be crying out for Dodge/Guard/Block/Grab plus S-Step/Fend or S-Firm/Block (or stat increases), leaving little room for S-Ball.

On other teams lacking ball movement skills (e.g. Nurgle), my strategy has generally been to avoid S-Ball and to go for Wrestle/Tackle instead, on the basis that you need to remove the TZ from the spilled ball, otherwise you are not going to pick it up. For Khorne, Frenzy/Tackle would appear to be fit enough for purpose. But don't let me stop you trying!

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Mass frenzy is very much a 2 edged sword and its usefulness largely depends on your opposition.

Against a weaker coach with a team you can outmuscle it will be a huge advantage with all those extra hits. But against a stronger coach it will be your undoing, especially if they have a high AV, high ST and mass guard team like Orcs. Whilst khorne look to be great at blitzing their blocking game is IMO weaker than a team like humans since they have 4 less block players and frenzy limits your choices in a messy scrum.

I agree, and how weak Khorne are on the first turn of offense has to be seen to be believed. One reason I think the team needs mass Guard. Don't forget, though, that a decent coach will simply not take some of his blocks (especially with the Fighters), or will find a sequence that enables him to take most of his blocks late in the turn. What I think will be the undoing of Khorne against a team like Orcs is their propensity to stay in contact and get hit back. One reason I think Dodge is rather important to the team (to dodge away instead of blocking, or for protection in the scrum).

[Overhamsteren]

Do people deploy against you so that you can contact their (central?) second line on a quick snap? Just wondering why 1st turn offence is so hard.

[swilhelm73]

I don't thing I've ever taken strip ball. For any not elven team what are the odds of getting the strip ball player into position to make his block, your opponent not have SH, having the skill make a difference on the dice, and managing to get the ball?

And as mentioned above, when you have so many players with Frenzy? I'd rather have wrackle as it works on cage corners and receivers too

[Shteve0]

I don't thing I've ever taken strip ball. For any not elven team what are the odds of getting the strip ball player into position to make his block, your opponent not have SH, having the skill make a difference on the dice, and managing to get the ball?

I'm running a strip ball ghoul at the moment on my league undead team. Against teams with no starting sure hands, he's a terror; against teams with sure hands, the threat of strip ball condenses their ball handling choices to one or two player.

He was particularly useful against a chaos team I faced game 4, (repeatedly) stealing the ball in my opponent's backfield and stalling the attack (2 die uphill against a ST4 goat - a blitz I'd never normally have used without the skill). Grab mummies help, since I was able to trade places with LoS guys to form a screen behind my opponent's, protecting the ghouls I'd run into an exposed backfield while wights and zombies placed tackle zones on any players who might otherwise get back to help recover the ball. Won the game 3-0, strip ball ghoul scoring all 3.

So yeah, it's not a bad skill at low TV.

[Smeborg]

Do people deploy against you so that you can contact their (central?) second line on a quick snap? Just wondering why 1st turn offence is so hard.

Hi, overhamsteren, yes. I'll try and illustrate by example from my very first game against High Elves.

I won the kick, chose to receive, and my opponent set up on the LoS with 3 rookie Linelves (X), bunched, with several players immediately behind them (X). I had 3 Bloodletters at the time, one I wanted to use to run the ball, this left 2 Bloodletters for the LoS. So I set up on the LoS (bunched): Herald (H), Bloodletter (B), Pit Fighter (P), Bloodletter, Herald. Note the Heralds are there only to give assists:

X-X-X-X
--XXX--
-HBFHB-

For my first 2 actions, I blocked with the Bloodletters (2 dice), choosing not to follow up, as it would have left my no Block AV7 players in position to be hit (more than once, probably). This left the Frenzied Pit Fighter facing a 2-die block, but with the 1/3 likelihood of getting a push, followed by an uphill block (2 dice, opponent chooses). Accordingly I deferred the Pit Fighter block until the end of the turn, and in fact did not use it as I had a turnover elsewhere (failed pick-up). Thus it happened that twice in my first game I did not take all 3 blocks on the LoS (and against HEs)!

The above illustration shows the importance of Bloodletters (no Frenzy) - they are sometimes the only "reliable" blockers on the LoS. Once you have 4 of them, you can use them to take all 3 blocks on the LoS (1 for running the ball). The illustration also shows why I have prioritised Guard in my development plan, and why I think Dodge/Guard/Block (I am prepared to argue about order) is the best plan for Bloodletters - so that they can be used to block on the LoS and in the scrum, following up when appropriate (to deliver the Guard assist to otherwise stranded Frenzy players, relying on Blodge/Regen for self-preservation).

Against higher ST teams, the LoS is more difficult. You may not get better than 1-die blocks on the LoS. Hence even with 3 Bloodletters available for LoS duty, you have an 80% chance of burning a RR or suffering a turnover on your first turn (3x1-die blocks without Block, 1xpick-up without S-Hands). One reason I think the team needs to start with 3RR followed by immediate Leader. You may also be able to see why I have thought long and hard about Dauntless, Wrestle and Dodge on the Pit Fighters.

Hope that helps!

[spubbbba]

Mass frenzy is very much a 2 edged sword and its usefulness largely depends on your opposition.

Against a weaker coach with a team you can outmuscle it will be a huge advantage with all those extra hits. But against a stronger coach it will be your undoing, especially if they have a high AV, high ST and mass guard team like Orcs. Whilst khorne look to be great at blitzing their blocking game is IMO weaker than a team like humans since they have 4 less block players and frenzy limits your choices in a messy scrum.

I agree, and how weak Khorne are on the first turn of offense has to be seen to be believed. One reason I think the team needs mass Guard. Don't forget, though, that a decent coach will simply not take some of his blocks (especially with the Fighters), or will find a sequence that enables him to take most of his blocks late in the turn. What I think will be the undoing of Khorne against a team like Orcs is their propensity to stay in contact and get hit back. One reason I think Dodge is rather important to the team (to dodge away instead of blocking, or for protection in the scrum).

Yeah, I can see them being quite an unfriendly team to new players, but that was the aim if they are tier 1.5 as the same can be said for pact, underworld and slann. Even very good players sometimes get carried away with their own surfing cleverness. I’ve seen a couple who will leave their defence completely open or burn re-rolls just to surf a rookie lino through multiple blocks. They may even turn down less risky chances to hit key players or pressure the ball.

In league play I can see the team having similar issues to chaos in that they are a couple of skills behind since the letters and heralds need things like block, guard, dodge (letters) as well as stuff like MB, tackle and PO. Stand Firm or Sidestep will have a place for the heralds and the letters too as getting counter surfed is a big risk if your opponent does go to the sidelines.

[Smeborg]

Stand Firm or Sidestep will have a place for the heralds and the letters too as getting counter surfed is a big risk if your opponent does go to the sidelines.

Agreed, looks like there will be lots of counter-surfing in practical play.

[Smeborg]

The great and good development plan is already bending under the pressure of reality. The team has 4 skill advances (+ST Herald, +ST Bloodletter, +MA Bloodletter, Leader on a Pit Fighter) but still lacks Block, Dodge, Guard, S-Hands. Probable changes as a consequence:

- The ST4 Bloodletter will take Block next, I can see him being used a lot in the scrum. I will have to consider giving him S-Hands as a late skill, he would make a supreme ball-holder, I don't mind 2xS-Hands on the team, it seems appropriate.

- The MA7 Bloodletter will consider taking S-Hands next, and I will consider doing without a regular Thrower (Pit Fighter). That also opens up the possibility of a Kicker (spare slot on defense).

- I will consider Block as the first normal skill on the other Bloodletters (instead of Dodge). This would also match their frequent use to take quiet blocks on the LoS. I am open-minded about the order of Dodge/Guard/Block on them.

Bloodletter development is the key to the team, I suggest. They are the "swing producers", they can re-inforce the team's strengths and/or remedy its weaknesses.

[narg]

What do you think about the Heralds so far? Do you use them a lot? Well I guess that without the big guy they would be handy all right...

By the way - is there a lot of guard on the other side? That's the kind of skill that would destroy Khorne, with lots of blocks backfiring in frenzy traps.

[Fassbinder75]

I'm sure you've not cherry-picked games Smeborg, but I'd really like to see how Khorne stacks up vs Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, Orcs or trad Chaos. Apart from the Norse, your opponents have fielded cupcake rosters.

[swilhelm73]

I'd like to see how they do vs Zons.

[Overhamsteren]

Cheers Smeborg I guess with an undeveloped team the Khorne side will have a hard time taking advantage of a quick snap into a mass of extra players and if deploying heavily to take advantage of a quick snap it could lead to a massive perfect defense/blitz backfire.

I guess it's just one of the first things I learned in bloodbowl, always deploy 2 spaces from the line of scrimmage...but sometimes it is worth reconsidering.

As for your stat increases they are pretty awesome but they are almost unfair for testing purposes. (although getting them so early does of course hurt a bit on the basic skills' front)

[Megr1m]

Do people deploy against you so that you can contact their (central?) second line on a quick snap? Just wondering why 1st turn offence is so hard.

Hi, overhamsteren, yes. I'll try and illustrate by example from my very first game against High Elves.

I won the kick, chose to receive, and my opponent set up on the LoS with 3 rookie Linelves (X), bunched, with several players immediately behind them (X). I had 3 Bloodletters at the time, one I wanted to use to run the ball, this left 2 Bloodletters for the LoS. So I set up on the LoS (bunched): Herald (H), Bloodletter (B), Pit Fighter (P), Bloodletter, Herald. Note the Heralds are there only to give assists:

X-X-X-X
--XXX--
-HBFHB-

For my first 2 actions, I blocked with the Bloodletters (2 dice), choosing not to follow up, as it would have left my no Block AV7 players in position to be hit (more than once, probably). This left the Frenzied Pit Fighter facing a 2-die block, but with the 1/3 likelihood of getting a push, followed by an uphill block (2 dice, opponent chooses). Accordingly I deferred the Pit Fighter block until the end of the turn, and in fact did not use it as I had a turnover elsewhere (failed pick-up). Thus it happened that twice in my first game I did not take all 3 blocks on the LoS (and against HEs)!

The above illustration shows the importance of Bloodletters (no Frenzy) - they are sometimes the only "reliable" blockers on the LoS. Once you have 4 of them, you can use them to take all 3 blocks on the LoS (1 for running the ball). The illustration also shows why I have prioritised Guard in my development plan, and why I think Dodge/Guard/Block (I am prepared to argue about order) is the best plan for Bloodletters - so that they can be used to block on the LoS and in the scrum, following up when appropriate (to deliver the Guard assist to otherwise stranded Frenzy players, relying on Blodge/Regen for self-preservation).

Against higher ST teams, the LoS is more difficult. You may not get better than 1-die blocks on the LoS. Hence even with 3 Bloodletters available for LoS duty, you have an 80% chance of burning a RR or suffering a turnover on your first turn (3x1-die blocks without Block, 1xpick-up without S-Hands). One reason I think the team needs to start with 3RR followed by immediate Leader. You may also be able to see why I have thought long and hard about Dauntless, Wrestle and Dodge on the Pit Fighters.

Hope that helps!

I run this set up for Norse Wendigo quite often - have you considered "wrap-around" blitzes (in this case with a BT, or your 4ST guy) against teams that can bully you on the LOS? It helps to push them out of position, and breaks up the Guard clumps they tend to form around the centre of the pitch.