Worst. Advice. Ever.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Well done voyagers, you know what generally means, there are exceptions.

[narg]

passing should be viable in this game or we are just playing Fantasy Rugby League.

I love facing off against teams that don't expect me to pass or don't have a contingency to stop me passing... and to be told that building a team for passing is a rookie mistake ( I may be misquoting there)

That's more or less what I meant, the rookie mistake is thinking that the passing game rocks and that the pass block skill is awesome and actually worth giving to a player.

Which isn't to say that I never pass. I started an elf team for a change and I'm passing a lot with them but the passes are more about SPP farming, and when it really matters I prefer to run the ball (yes even with elves) or to do a hand-off. So far my opponents haven't even had the opportunity to roll for a single interception against that team.

admittedly I may use a passing play once versus 10 running plays, but the opportunity is enough to keep defences honest.

There you go. Sounds like you're trying to have an argument for argument's sake as you're just running the ball like everybody else.

I've had a small argument with Carnis in the past about the usefulness of a thrower in a Norse team. He thinks that the team is better off without them while I think that it gives you options, and when my cage gets stuck it allows me to throw the ball. Nevertheless, my Norse have a win rate of 69% while his have a win rate of 76%. The difference is probably not entirely due to the thrower but still, it makes you think.

I can't believe we're arguing so much about pass block.

[danton]

[A beast with Extra Arms and Pass Block along with Prehensile tail, or Disturbing presence can be very useful when not carrying the ball.

A beastman with Block, MB, Piling On and Claws would most likely be better.

So would Block, MB, Piling On, Tackle.

Or Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Tackle.

I was talking about additional skills on a ball-carrier beast. I wasn't talking about replacing essential killer / utility beasts. Almost every high TV Chaos team I've ever come across has at least one beastman that is developed for carrying the ball. The point is that the ball-carrier beasts often accumulate SPPs quite quickly compared to the rest of the team and that giving one Pass Block as a late skill is a legitimate option. You don't want your precious ball carrier beast in the thick of the action when playing on defense do you?

I never said "spam Pass Block and don't take other better skills". What I said was that there is a legitimate space for a skill like Pass Block on the right player on a well developed team.

Kicking deep and sending players to the opponents half of the pitch. Dodge will get you there in the first place and after you're there, Block or Wrestle would serve you better there. And those skills are useful even if you can't stop the opponent caging up in the middle.

Think about your own dark elf runner, the one with Pass, NoS and Accurate. What if instead of those skills the runner had Block, Dodge and Side step? If you don't have any blocking skills, then you pretty much have to dump off the ball even against a 1-d block with Block. With Blodge, you can let the opponent roll the dice in vain looking for the POW. If a POW comes up (worse odds than you failing the dump off and the resulting catch), you get to decide where you get knocked down.

I think that Dump off is a good skill to have in the dark elf repertoire. The runner comes with the skill out of the box, so why not make use of it and enhance its effectiveness? At high TV you will come across a lot of teams with Wrackle players or with Block and Tackle and their odds of taking down a blodge player are usually better than making the dump-off happen in a lot of scenarios. I also like having a runner that can pass the ball if needs be, as that can open the pitch up for a pass to a receiver on the opposite flank, spreading the field and keeping your opponent guessing.

Mine is 23 interceptions/11 been intercepted in 852 games. At least you are posting in the right thread danton !

That statistic says absolutely nothing about the discussion at hand. If you never take Pass Block ever, then how is it that suddenly your lack of interceptions has anything to do with that? Also the whole point of my thread was to point out that Pass Block can have value in many match-ups regardless of whether or not you actually make an interception or not. It is another variable that the opposition coach has to factor in to any given situation.

Well done voyagers, you know what generally means, there are exceptions.

Indeed there are and that is the whole point of this discussion. Games are often won and lost due to those exceptions. Maybe if you were less snarky and inclined to put others down then you could actually understand the concept....

[nick_nameless]

I just want to say that if my Slann catcher gets to the point of having block, dodge, sidestep, catch, at that point I will definitely consider giving him pass block as a 5th skill, and I'll consider making another one just like him if I can get the player there. I can get pretty much anywhere and intercept on a 4+ with a re-roll, and the catcher is already very situationally useful.

It may be rare that it's useful in play, but it will certainly control late game comeback scores and it will slow my opponent down so that I have more chances to leap in and get the ball out. And if you are down at the end or tied and going for the win or the draw, this is a chance I have to limit those opportunities.

To me this is a clear case of how a skill affects the meta-game more than how it directly affects game play.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Indeed there are and that is the whole point of this discussion. Games are often won and lost due to those exceptions. Maybe if you were less snarky and inclined to put others down then you could actually understand the concept....

No, games are not "often" won and lost due to exceptions, they are often won and lost by the normal run of play, hence the term exception.
Also a ballcarrier beast does not have loads of skills to waste on passblock etc, he wants Blodge Surehands minimum which realistically leaves two more skills, his choices include +stats, fend, tackle and 2 heads, all desirable and useful.

[danton]

In my experience when those "exceptions" occur, they are usually the difference between winning and losing a game. The frequency of those situations of course varies from player to player and can also potentially depend on how you defend with different races against the running game.

Of course there are other options for a ball-carrying beast, but you can't exactly rely on getting stat upgrades or doubles on them either. All I'm saying is that there is a legitimate build that involves giving Pass Block to one.

There are two camps in this thread it seems. One that has it in their heads that Pass Block is never useful and is only taken by people that don't fully understand the game. The other that can see it has some value as a late game meta skill. The former seem to have a lot in common with religious zealots by this stage of the discussion!

[Hitonagashi]

There are two camps in this thread it seems. One that has it in their heads that Pass Block is never useful and is only taken by people that don't fully understand the game. The other that can see it has some value as a late game meta skill. The former seem to have a lot in common with religious zealots by this stage of the discussion!

As others have stated there is always a better skill to take than passblock particularly for elves. Block or wrestle, dodge, sidestep, tackle, diving tackle, fend are all more useful and that’s not even factoring in doubles and stats.

That is the point we are concentrating on.

Passblock can be useful sometimes. It's not like it's a skill which costs 20 TV for 0 utility ever.

The argument is not that it *could* be useful, it's that there is a very very low probability of finding a game where another skill would not have been *more* useful.

[DoubleSkulls]

if what you are saying is that PB is a rubbish skill, I would suggest going back to what I suggested in the early days of the vault (not to mention earlier when I tried to get Tom to say it was ok)

Allow prone players to use PB to attempt interceptions (use the 3 MA to stand up.), allow PB and Jump Up to also work in tandem

passing should be viable in this game or we are just playing Fantasy Rugby League. I love facing off against teams that don't expect me to pass or don't have a contingency to stop me passing... and to be told that building a team for passing is a rookie mistake ( I may be misquoting there) just seems dumb. Passing has amazing skill combos and move the ball faster than running and hand off's alone.

admittedly I may use a passing play once versus 10 running plays, but the opportunity is enough to keep defences honest.

I like PB for other reasons though mainly the movement. I also like to give catchers guard and tackle to give me more options deep in my own half at reaching / impeding the ball carrier...

Can you see the inherent contradiction of making Pass Block better and wanting more passing?

[Smurf]

I have played games where it has stalled and the ball needs to be thrown to score a winning TD or Equaliser. Suddenly the PBer becomes the threat.

And in how many games did PB do nothing at all? This isn't a question of whether PB is of no value at all - obviously it is - but whether other skills have a better impact on your ability to win games.

Hard to judge. 5 interceptions in 22 games. How many times my PBers prevent the coach from passing... no idea.

As I said, normally intercept and score!

The last one was against orcs desparate to equalise to take it to OT for a SF shot. Down to the wire, he weighed up his decisions and went for the throw, he knew the PBer may have a chance and it did. Score again: 4-2 finish.

Seen a game where Norse could have beat orcs. The player made a silly mistake and did not tack the catcher to deep centre field. The Thrower made his play and could have avoided the PBer on the orc team... orcs intercepted and won the game.

[danton]

Passblock can be useful sometimes. It's not like it's a skill which costs 20 TV for 0 utility ever.

The argument is not that it *could* be useful, it's that there is a very very low probability of finding a game where another skill would not have been *more* useful.

Well I am at least happy that there is a third camp in the mix that is interested in having a rational discussion, rather than bury their head in the sand, repeatedly saying that "no one passes, so Pass Block is shit!" regardless of the counter arguments.

My experience simply tells me that there is sometimes a role for a pass blocker on some experienced teams of different races. Not every team of every race should have one of course. Prioritizing skills and skill combinations is evidently a fundamental part of the game. What it boils down to is how you use those skill combinations within your team's general play-style on both sides of the ball.

What most people fail to recognize is that Pass Block is often exerting TV value on the field even when it is not being actively used. Just the presence of a player with the skill in a certain area of the pitch can have an impact on the options that a coach considers viable at that time.

[voyagers_uk]

if what you are saying is that PB is a rubbish skill, I would suggest going back to what I suggested in the early days of the vault (not to mention earlier when I tried to get Tom to say it was ok)

Allow prone players to use PB to attempt interceptions (use the 3 MA to stand up.), allow PB and Jump Up to also work in tandem

passing should be viable in this game or we are just playing Fantasy Rugby League. I love facing off against teams that don't expect me to pass or don't have a contingency to stop me passing... and to be told that building a team for passing is a rookie mistake ( I may be misquoting there) just seems dumb. Passing has amazing skill combos and move the ball faster than running and hand off's alone.

admittedly I may use a passing play once versus 10 running plays, but the opportunity is enough to keep defences honest.

I like PB for other reasons though mainly the movement. I also like to give catchers guard and tackle to give me more options deep in my own half at reaching / impeding the ball carrier...

Can you see the inherent contradiction of making Pass Block better and wanting more passing?

I like passing, the NFL is a pass heavy league and interceptions are game changers which is how I see this game in my head...

so yes I do thankyou.

[voyagers_uk]

Well done voyagers, you know what generally means, there are exceptions.

Seriously, you want to get on my bad side... ok, welcome to an interesting time in your life...

[mattgslater]

Well done voyagers, you know what generally means, there are exceptions.

More than a few. Enough that you can't call it a rule, but rather a tendency. How about, "passing into coverage is a desperation move" instead of "generally, nobody passes into coverage"?

Though, FWIW, I've been playing BB since 1997, and I've thrown two interceptions, and intercepted one ball, once. And I'm kind of passy. In 40 games on FUMBBL, I've thrown an average of 2 comps per match, which is outrageously high for a coach with a winning record, and I've allowed about 1.25 comps per match (pretty average for a coach with a winning record), and in that time I've thrown no picks and allowed no picks. It's just really, really rare, and PB doesn't improve the odds much. Ints are often gamebreaker plays, but it's not worth investing an early/middle skill in getting more of them, because you'd need to multiply your odds tenfold or more before it's worthwhile.

[garion]

This thread seems to have gotten a lot more serious than the last time I visited it. I blame you Matt Now lets everyone go back to finding all the things Smurf said and posting them here, it was a lot more fun that way

[mattgslater]

Can you see the inherent contradiction of making Pass Block better and wanting more passing?

I like passing, the NFL is a pass heavy league and interceptions are game changers which is how I see this game in my head...

so yes I do thankyou.

1) I agree with Voyagers. There should be more incentive to pass in BB.
2) I don't think PB has to be any better; if there were more passing, PB would be a better skill.
3) Ints are game-changing plays in BB, too. They're not even all that much rarer, if you consider drives to be equivalent to down series (the closest corresponding unit of time, not counting ST plays, where there is no forward pass). It's just that while a NFL football game has 11 minutes of action over a 3-hour period, a BB game represents maybe one minute of action over a 2-hour period (longer if you game with the laggards in my league). The difference is that in the average American Football game, there are 2 ints, while 2 ints is probably 100 BB games, on average.