Calling all human coaches Advice needed

[TheDoc]

Hi All,

I am playing in a small league with a developed human team and seem to have hit a bit of a plateau with the team. They don't seem very effective anymore. I am playing against developed woodies and Skaven and novice Norse and Orcs. My tactics are taken directly from Joemanji's guide on plasmoids site and they work quite well (I need to focus on defense though... but that's a personal thing).

So two bits of advice really (1) general advice on how I should take the team forward and (2) I have a roll (6,4) on a thrower (No.5 on the roster) what do I take MA, AV, or a skill??

Roster
(1) Blitzer 8,3,3,8 Block, + MA, Mighty Blow, Guard
(2) Blitzer 7,3,4,8 Block, Guard, mighty blow, +ag
(3) Blitzer 7,3,3,8 Block, Dodge, guard
(4) Blitzer 7,3,3,8 Block, mighty blow, tackle, strip ball, piling on
(5) Thrower 6,3,3,8 Pass, sure hands, accurate,strong arm, block, (MA, AV or Skill)
(6) Catcher 8,2,3,7 Catch Dodge, Block, diving catch, side step
(7) Catcher 8,2,3,7 Catch Dodge, diving catch, Fend, side step, block
(8) Lineman 6,3,3,8 kick, block
(9) Lineman 6,3,3,8 block
(11) Lineman 6,3,3,8 Block
(12) Lineman 6,3,3,8 block, tackle
(13) Catcher 8,2,3,7 catch, dodge, wrestle
(15) Thrower 6,3,3,8 pass, sure hands
(16) Ogre 5,5,2,9 Loner, bone head, mighty blow, thick skull, Throw team mate, Block

What does everyone think? I am a bit stumped. oh one more thing... how often do people block with the ogre. I use him more as a road block, right thing to do??

Thanks

Ade

[spubbbba]

The team looks good to me, I can’t see much wrong with 90% of the skill choices you’ve taken. Only thing I disagree with is the amount of TV wrapped up in passing as I don’t think this is the most efficient way to play with humans.

I’d have taken dodge or guard on the thrower over strong arm and wouldn’t bother with diving catch on the catchers in favour of dauntless, diving tackle or tackle.

For the 2nd thrower I’d develop his as a back up blitzer, get Block, Tackle and strip ball with guard (if facing more bashy teams) or MB (if facing more agile ones) on doubles. That way the Blizters can concentrate on Guard, MB, SF and PO with some tackle mixed in. Frankly I’m amazed you’ve managed to get 4 skilled Blitzers as I seem to go through more of them than linemen.

For the Thrower then +MA is the only worthwhile choice, since you’ve made him a passing player then the extra MA makes him much better at both getting the ball and passing it. Extra MA is always a good skill on throwers, though for humans 5+5 represents a real dilemma as Guard, Dodge and MB are all good skills too.

[burgun824]

For your throwers:

1) +MA is always tempting but you've obviously already committed to making him a passing thrower based on your skill selction, so I would say considering that it's your 4th skill and it's going to be a long while (if ever) before you see that 5th skill that you might consider safe throw. I think with strong arm you're not going to need to worry as much about getting that extra square of movement out of him to line up a good pass. With safe throw you can just lob it over anyone and everyone and feel pretty confident that nobody is going to get a whack at it.

2) I would develop the second thrower as a runner/ball handler. block -> dump off taking +MA and agility selections on any doubles starting with dodge. I see merit to developing them as back up blitzers but I like a good solid "Trent Dilfer" style thrower on my team, especially when playing bash teams. It allows me to feel safer while I patiently wait through their grind game for my opportunity knowing that my QB may not look flashy but he's not going to lose me the game either. Then I can pull my catchers off the field and leave my muscle on to absorb the inevitable barrage of hit's you're going to be fed. Catcher's may have speed but they don't fair well when ganged up on and any good bash opponent is going to target them first, so I just leave my high priced guys off the field and out manuever them at their own game with my Trent Dilfer.

As for your catchers:

1) I like to have 4 catchers on my team for their speed but I don't like to ever have more then 2 on the field at a time. 2 on offense and 2 on defense. You have 2 developed as traditional catchers. That's fine as those would be your offensive catchers and they pair well with your passing thrower, but a lot of human players avoid having catchers playing defense for some reason. With MA 8 they make outstanding ball strikers if given the proper skill progression.
For me it's -> block -> dauntless -> tackle -> strip ball -> side step -> shadowing OR diving tackle (depending on your preferred flavor).
I take side step before shadowing or diving tackle because I've found that with tackle your opponent will tend to try and block you away before dodging out and side step is more helpful in that situation. I field one on each flank two spaces away from the LOS and just behind a blitzer that's one space off the LOS and send 'em deep on my first turn using the blitzer's for protection. If you get a "Blitz!" result on the KO table thank Nuffle because you are going to be on their ball handler's like white on rice before they even knew what happened.

2) I don't like taking wrestle with catcher's. Although it makes them a little more stout I feel it deters from their natural ability which is speed. That is unless they've got jump-up but right there you've burnt 2 skills when you could have just taken block to keep them on their feet to begin with. If I had one complaint about your roster it's that I'd sack that catcher with wrestle and get a fresh one.

As for the rest of your team:

They look pretty good. The blitzers are looking nasty (good). The Ogre has block (outstanding!). Overall they look like you've been managing them well. I'd say focus on getting your blitzer's some more TDs because they look like they're lagging behind your catcher's and throwers (which is natural most times) and just keep taking block, tackle, fend, and wrestle on those lino's and hopefully nuffle will bless you with a +ST or doubles for guard and you'll be in business.

I love playing humans. The most dominating human player I ever had was a blitzer that was lucky enough to be blessed with +ST, +MA, +AG and had guard and tackle. Everyone in my league hated him and he had a target over his head by the end of the season because it was like having Griff's younger, not quite as well developed brother playing for me every game. It was awesome.

[MKL]

Hi 'ummiecoach2010

Not an humans expert, but imo...

-Your team is nicely developed, but maybe too much focused on the offensive drive: 2 good offensive Catchers, a “pure” Thrower, etc. Can you afford such specialists? Do they pull their weight in defense?
Diving-Tackle to the S-Step Catchers can be useful to stymie GutterRunnes and W-Elf Catchers. Maybe Dauntless to the Wrestle Catcher.
-Not enough Guards. 3 Guards is good, but not enough I think: Skaven may out-strength you, let alone Orcs.
-Not enough Tackle, maybe: your two most developed opponents are Dodge-heavy.
-Too high rating, maybe. You risk giving a lot of inducements to Norse and Orcs. How many rr do you have? Do you need 14 players? Do you need the 2nd Thrower?

About your Thrower I favor +Ma: useful both in offense and in defense. Alternatively, K-O Return or Safe Throw, but these skill are good only in attack, and looks like you are already good enough here.

[Smeborg]

I am not surprised if you are struggling against developed Woodies and Skaven, as you have very limited resources on defense against such teams (just 2 x Tackle and 1 x Wrestle). Against ST teams you have limited Guard (3) and no Dauntless.

For Humies, I consider Wrestle an either/or thing. You give it either to the Linos or to the Catchers (who will also then need Dauntless, and become ball-hunting Blitzers with range). But I think the team needs it.

I feel Guard is more important to Humies than M-Blow. Better to throw down more blocks at better odds than a smaller number at worse odds in the hope of getting casualties. More Guard is also better during the opponent's turn.

I would give +1MA to the Thrower without hesitation. Your passing game looks excellent - so re-inforce it.

I would block plenty with that Ogre - he is unlikely to cause a turnover, since he has Block. Guard would be a good next skill on him if it is not a doubles.

Hope that helps.

[burgun824]

I feel Guard is more important to Humies than M-Blow. Better to throw down more blocks at better odds than a smaller number at worse odds in the hope of getting casualties. More Guard is also better during the opponent's turn.

An excellent point. Guard should be your first skill on at least three blitzers, if not all of them, barring skill ups and doubles.

[Ullis]

Get a Dirty Player lineman to mop up those gutter runners, wardancers and PO blitzers from the floor. You need to gain numerical superiority against light teams and try and hold your own against heavies. Fouling helps a lot with that because your blitzers aren't going to be enough.

If your league or yourself have issues with fouling (surprisingly many do), then you need to start working on them.

[TheDoc]

Firtsly I'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions. They will be read again and again and taken on board. It has made me think of a full restructure to the team.

As for a few comments made:

Hi 'ummiecoach2010

Not an humans expert, but imo...

-Your team is nicely developed, but maybe too much focused on the offensive drive: 2 good offensive Catchers, a “pure” Thrower, etc. Can you afford such specialists? Do they pull their weight in defense?
Diving-Tackle to the S-Step Catchers can be useful to stymie GutterRunnes and W-Elf Catchers. Maybe Dauntless to the Wrestle Catcher.

I do struggle in defense. I suppose I am relying on the thrower and catchers to get me out of trouble and it doesn't always work that way (though I was successful at the cyanide game with a similar team- but that was easy even on hard).

I find that I do struggle against the Skaven and Orcs for power. My last game (against the Orcs) I got the ball onto the field but couldn't get it out of the melee that followed. I then got caught up in a hitting game and lost in the last turn... bummer!

Any defensive suggestions or plays that people use would be great. Cheers

'Ummie

EDIT: The team is worth 1,980,000 and has 4 RRs 9FF. I was about the get rid of one of the RRs.

[MKL]

Any defensive suggestions or plays that people use would be great. Cheers

'Ummie

Mainly a Necro coach nowadays, I cannot advise you much actual defensive tactics , but I'm in the same boat as you (like Humans, Necro are a reactive team: not bash nor finesse).
From my point of view, your team is good but too “linear”. I think you need some second-tier skills to complicate the opponent's game: Frenzy, Grab, positioning skills etc. Don't let the opponent play his game: you need force him into awkward situations, because bashers are stronger than you and finesse teams are... well, finer

Against finesse teams, most is already said: more Tackle and D-Tackle. D-Tackle on your S-Step Catchers is a way to make them more useful on defense. Dauntless on the Wrestle one, followed maybe by Tackle or S-Ball.

Against any team: Guard. On doubles on Linemen and Catchers too. Maybe (big maybe) even on the Thrower, I dare. If the Skaven out-guard you, you are in an uphill fight.

Against Bash teams: lacking elven agility I rely on positioning skills. Fend, S-Firm, S-Step mess with your opponent bash and movement, forcing him into dangerous plays to advance the cage. Positioning skills can help you avoid being sucked in a scrum, too

Related to positioning skills, Frenzy. A single Frenzy in the team is very useful to restrict the opponent's mobility along the sides. A crowd-push is the surest way to numerical superiority; the menace is enough to narrow the opponent's field. Eligible for Frenzy you got the killer Blitzer (but you want Guard, too) or a Lineman.

You already knows, but I reinforce it: you got a M-Blow+P-On Blitzer: use him to hunt mercilessy the most vulnerable (stat-wise or position-wise) opposing player: you need superior number.

Your Blitzers are good: someone is near the next skill? Can you force-skill some td on the Blitzers n.1 and n.2? -Yeah, I know, easier said than done- but they are the best chance to inject some new skill in your team, and they are quality players. Failing that, you can try Catchers n.6 and n.13...

Hope some veteran Human coach will chime in: I will steal any solid tactical advice to win against bash

[plasmoid]

At TV 194 I guess both the skaven and the wood elfs can access your cage with ease.
I'd go with dump-off on the thrower. It's better than you'd think.
I might ditch the other thrower for TV reasons.
I think I'd have focused on a more reliable OTS catcher. Side Step, sure feet and diving catch (or sprint).
Cheers
Martin

[Smurf]

I think your problem is that 12 of 14 players have block. Ok 4 of the started with it and the Ogres needs it for sure.

Wrestle is good too.

So what is the win record for your slightly taller not as tough dwarves?

I'm going to have to dig out my humans as the blitzers rolled crazy stuff like doubles... I have three with dodge, one with an AG increase and another with an AV increase. Although the club has heard me moan about rolling doubles... not again I want a normal skill! This is not true of my WE team, although some doubles have crept in.

[TheDoc]

He's where it gets a bit embaressing... the win record is something like 39% for last season. I drew a hell of a lot of games as well only losing about 4 of 20 matches.

I think I need to rethink this team and maybe begin to revamp them a bit.

[Smurf]

For the additional skill, take the move then you can cover the entire back field with one player to get the ball. Also it can long pass on a 3+ if in dire need to move the ball up field quickly.

[TheDoc]

Well thanks to one and all on the advice.

It has been great to see other points of view and I totally agree with the comments on the defensive side of my game including side step, diving tackle, etc. I will certainly be looking in to doing this. I have looked at the team and nos 2,3 6 and 13 all are near rolls and will be catered for in the future to increase their points and get fresh skills to be defensive.

On the thrower I took the MA so I can move across the field a bit easier.

I cut my 2nd Thrower, and a RR so down to 3RR. My team rating stands at 194 now and I hope that playing a few more games may free up some places in the team so I can develop new players with fresh ideas.

Cheers again

'Ummie

[spubbbba]

Humans are a tough prospect at high TV. You need reserves when facing bash teams so I’d say 13 players are a minimum as you can always foul the agile teams late in the half too. The trouble with this is that it tends to bloat TV and humans need skills too.

Personally I really don’t rate catchers and would have been tempted to fire one of the skilled ones over the rookie thrower. If they haven’t rolled a stat by 4th skill I’d say cut them as that is 150Tv alone. Human throwers are one of my favourite players, they aren’t glamorous like wolves, bulls and wardancers but are good value and have plenty of useful skills to choose from. A back up thrower with block is always useful and you can give him leader to save 30 TV too.