Norse: Ulfwerener as a Ball-Hunter?

[pauli42]

Does anyone have try out a Ball-Hunter build on a Ulfwerener?

And yes i know that Strip Ball is mainly an elf trick but with frenzy and juggernaut it will work. The Ball-Hunter should just pop off the ball and a Runner with Sure Hands + Dodge will on his side to pick it up. I am afraid about his survivability without Block.


Ulfwerener
# Ball-Hunter -> Frenzy, Juggernaut, Strip Ball, Break Tackle + [Dodge] ?

much better:
# Ball-Hunter -> Frenzy, Wrestle, Break Tackle, Guard + [Dodge] ?

[Smeborg]

I think if you want this kind of build you may do better with B-Tackle as an early skill (1st or 2nd).

If you have Block+Tackle+Frenzy+ST4 then I suggest S-Ball is unimportant (against a ST3 player you will get up to 6 dice of blocks, even against a ST4 player, or ST3+Guard you will get up to 3).

Hope that helps.

[RogueThirteen]

I suspect this is an unpopular decision, but if I'm building a ball-hunter I go for Wrestle over Block. Obviously, Wrestle+Tackle means each die has a 50% of downing a blodge ball-carrier (and most ball-carriers will have blodge well before an ulf gets two skills). The obvious downside is people don't want their big heavy hitters wrestling to the ground all the time and removing themselves from the action. Since you are taking Strip Ball, you can probably get away with just having Block.

I've got a Saurus who has Break Tackle and Tackle, and is very close to getting Wrestle. Ideally I'd rather have Block and Strip Ball (like you're plan), but you've got to be realistic in these situations -- getting an ulf or saurus to four skills is going to take probably thirty games AND some luck with the MVPs (unless you play to level that character instead of playing to win). So, for that reason, I'd opt Wrestle instead of Block and Strip Ball, as it does a similar thing but saves you needing to get 45 more SPP to pull it off (31 -->76). This means each die has a 50% chance of bringing down the ball-carrier and freeing the ball, but since you've got Frenzy it also means even if you have to choose a push, you get to throw another (hopefully 2-die Block) where you'll have ANOTHER 75% to bring down the carrier. I'm not sure Strip Ball in this equation would really be all that useful, as with a potential 4-block die and a 50% any of them downs, you should be good to go.

If it were my team, I'd go Break Tackle, Tackle, Wrestle. I wouldn't bother with Wrestle first, since once you start going this build it will usually be less than ideal to blitz with this ulf unless it's going after the ball-carrier, so the added reliability to blocking probably isn't as useful as the mobility of break tackle.

[dines]

Agree with the ones above, IF your going for that idea, then break tackle first. He's worthless if he can be tied up easily.

It's not a thing I personally would do, but it might be fun and if you are lucky enough to get a ST+, then you can start dodging into cages!

[pauli42]

@RogueThirteen: Thank you for your detail feedback, i like it!

But what do think about Juggernaut + Strip Ball vs Wrestle + Tackle against a Blodger ST3 ballcarrier? Juggernaut "choose to treat a ‘Both Down’ result as if a ‘Pushed’ result" and Strip Ball "applying a ‘Pushed’ or ‘Defender Stumbles’ result will cause the opposing player to drop the ball"

The odds to pop the ball free from a ST3 with Block and Dodge are:
- Frenzy, Juggernaut, Strip Ball with ST4 => 2D Block 5/6 = 1. Block 97.222 % (99.923 %) + 2. Block 97.222 % (99.923 %) == 94.522 % (99.773 %)
- Frenzy, Wrestle, Tackle with ST4=> 2D Block 4/6 = 1. Block 75 % (93.75 %) + 2. Block 75 % (93.75 %) == 56.25 % (84.375 %)

The Frenzy, Juggernaut, Strip Ball combination will pop the ball out of a ST3 Blodger hands, and Juggernaut helps a lot to counter Fend and SF BUT Frenzy, Wrestle, Tackle has much more use like a deep field safety and he will life longer.

Hard decision between a perfect ball-hunter-glass-canon and a strong defense blitzer.

[dines]

Somethings wrong with your stats, your chance of getting the ball free doesn't decrease with frenzy...

But what would you rather achieve? As a norse, you don't have an AG4 player to pick up the loose ball and run. Therefore getting the opponent down while getting the ball free is much better than just getting the ball free imo.

[pauli42]

Somethings wrong with your stats, your chance of getting the ball free doesn't decrease with frenzy...

But what would you rather achieve? As a norse, you don't have an AG4 player to pick up the loose ball and run. Therefore getting the opponent down while getting the ball free is much better than just getting the ball free imo.

FYI:
* "The Ball-Hunter should just pop off the ball and a Runner with Sure Hands + Dodge will on his side to pick it up and run for his life"
* The Odds are from Samba Action Calculator

[Hitonagashi]

@RogueThirteen: Thank you for your detail feedback, i like it!

But what do think about Juggernaut + Strip Ball vs Wrestle + Tackle against a Blodger ST3 ballcarrier? Juggernaut "choose to treat a ‘Both Down’ result as if a ‘Pushed’ result" and Strip Ball "applying a ‘Pushed’ or ‘Defender Stumbles’ result will cause the opposing player to drop the ball"

The odds to pop the ball free from a ST3 with Block and Dodge are:
- Frenzy, Juggernaut, Strip Ball with ST4 => 2D Block 5/6 = 1. Block 97.222 % (99.923 %) + 2. Block 97.222 % (99.923 %) == 94.522 % (99.773 %)
- Frenzy, Wrestle, Tackle with ST4=> 2D Block 4/6 = 1. Block 75 % (93.75 %) + 2. Block 75 % (93.75 %) == 56.25 % (84.375 %)

The Frenzy, Juggernaut, Strip Ball combination will pop the ball out of a ST3 Blodger hands, and Juggernaut helps a lot to counter Fend and SF BUT Frenzy, Wrestle, Tackle has much more use like a deep field safety and he will life longer.

Hard decision between a perfect ball-hunter-glass-canon and a strong defense blitzer.

The advantage of wrestle/tackle is that there are no counter skills. Almost every strong team has a sure hands ball carrier anyway (to deal with SB elves)...with Juggs/SB, you are in trouble if you run into a blodging sure hands ball carrier.

Also, I'd be surprised if you got a 2d. You are ST 4, but bashers will have guard on the cage corners, and agile teams will probably be using a loose cage, forcing 2 dodges, which makes Break Tackle completely useless. That's why I don't go that route with lizardmen saurii...it's a route that only works if your opponent makes a mistake in his caging.

[Ullis]

And besides all this, I don't see a norse team affording to dedicate an ulfwerener to something like this. Ulfwereners need to shore up the line, assist the blitzers and hit stuff themselves.

Why not just give Strip Ball followed by Tackle to a lino and be done with it?

[dines]

Somethings wrong with your stats, your chance of getting the ball free doesn't decrease with frenzy...

But what would you rather achieve? As a norse, you don't have an AG4 player to pick up the loose ball and run. Therefore getting the opponent down while getting the ball free is much better than just getting the ball free imo.

FYI:
* "The Ball-Hunter should just pop off the ball and a Runner with Sure Hands + Dodge will on his side to pick it up and run for his life"
* The Odds are from Samba Action Calculator

-With those two skills and the ball in only one tacklezone, the "pickup and run" only works 67% of the time.
-It doesn't add the odds together correctly, it treats them as they are two consecutive dodges that both has to work.

And as already mentioned, you can't ignore sure hands, it's more or less only elves that do without that.

[pauli42]

I am very happy with all your answers and i agree! The ball-hunter-idea sounds nice, but after u all pointed out the drawbacks i will not go for it.

One con is the need of guard in a norse team and with only 5x S-access a Ulfwerener with a solid Block, Guard, Tackle build will also do the ball-hunter job and much more! But i have to think about a lineman with Fend, Strip Ball...

Thank you all!!

[nick_nameless]

I love the idea of an Ulfwerner ball hunter, and have been working my Norse team in that direction since it started.

I figure that all of the other players have block, so a wrestle, tackle, strip ball, break tackle Ulfwerner is a fine choice for creating a skill progression that doesn't waste any slots, leave any TV on the table or have any redundancy. He's already S4, so with some good positioning you have a fair chance of getting a 2D Block on most ball carriers, save ones completely surrounded by guarders.

I use Wilhelm Chaney as a ball hunter when I induce him. He does a fine job, and he doesn't tackle.

[pauli42]

I love the idea of an Ulfwerner ball hunter, and have been working my Norse team in that direction since it started.

I figure that all of the other players have block, so a wrestle, tackle, strip ball, break tackle Ulfwerner is a fine choice for creating a skill progression that doesn't waste any slots, leave any TV on the table or have any redundancy. He's already S4, so with some good positioning you have a fair chance of getting a 2D Block on most ball carriers, save ones completely surrounded by guarders.

I use Wilhelm Chaney as a ball hunter when I induce him. He does a fine job, and he doesn't tackle.

Did u never miss Guard on him or do you have some linemen's with it?

[nick_nameless]

Linemen

[sunnyside]

I'm a fan of Ulfwerener "ball hunters" but as has been mentioned strip ball is the wrong way to go about it.

Instead you're looking for wrestle first, then break tackle, with dodge on a double for survivability and to leave a reroll free for getting the carrier down or for picking up the ball.

Those skills give you a generally useful player who, as a bonus, can pose a serious threat to a ball carrier. Even if you don't have tackle, wrestle and frenzy together pose a significant threat.

The general utility is important, because there are a number of ways to counter the threat of a ball hunting ulf such as putting guard on the cage corners, or building a lose cage that the ulf can't get through.

By having a generally useful player, you are now in a position to exploit the weaknesses they will have had to present in order to counter you. For example, if their guard players are making the cage, than there won't be as much on the rest of the field, and they may have had to limit their movement in order to achieve that cage. If you didn't have the ulf threat, they'd have been free to form a cage out of different players.

Juggernaut is nice, but less for ball hunting and more for crowd surfing and chainpushing.