Couple high elves questions

[sunnyside]

So I've got some unasembled Eldar guardian defenders, and I was wondering if they might make a decent blood bowl high elf team.

I'd have to mess with the backpacks probably. I'm thinking throwers get to hold a ball, catchers get a head instead of a helmet and maybe a bit of clear plastic to give them some air, and blitzers get some fidly bitz. Think that would look decent or stupid?

As for the team, I was thinking about starting without catchers but with 3 re-rolls to try and keep the linemen dodging/blocking and generally alive until I start getting SPPs on them. I'm guessing catchers would be easy to skill up later, but would be lower survivability SPP hogs if aquired early on.

I very rarely see high elf teams in my league, do they suck, or could it just be that they lack the flair of their cousins having boring AV instead of fun positionals and skills?

[besters]

High Elves are seen as possbily the weakest of the Elf teams, my personal preference is to take Catchers early, they are SPP hogs but they are also your star players. I tend to take them at the expense of TRR's.

I don't often advocate a throwing game, bit I admit the exception is this team, but you need the speed to get away with it.

Plus if you don't take catchers you are better off playing Dark elves.

Whatever your choices, have fun.

[Smeborg]

No, they don't suck. They are quite a good league team, especially in the long term. They are the "hardest" elven team (in the sense of high AV) and they are cheaper than WEs or DEs.

Some coaches like the team a lot. Quite a few find their style of play rather dull, which is why you may not see them much in your league. They need an environment which encourages long-running teams. Apart from the Throwers (who are the best in the game), their positional players start with only one skill. This suggests they will suit a patient coach who likes to build up a team.

HEs are not very good in tournaments, in my experience. They lack starting Dodge.

[sunnyside]

Hmmm I can see the issue with the possibly dull tactics.

Development wise, aside from maybe going straight for accurate on the thrower, it looks like you might just be going for all around blodge (or wrestle) and then frequently sidestep. The difference being that the other elves are so much closer to getting that setup, and from there they start building in different ways and doing fun things. DE and WE have fun positionals doing funky things on top of that.

HE seem like they just put the basics on top of a little more armor.

Though I suppose you could argue that HE have the best thrower in the game.

My environment does have teams going long. Though I'd like them to not get slaughtered out of the box. Hence why I'm shy about trading re-rolls for catchers that do have a lower AV but can't even dodge.

Though obviously you'd want a crew of them, maybe with wrestle, to score TDs and especially to put heavy pressure on ballcarriers on bashy teams that are deep in the backfield.

[Viajero]

Some seem to think that HiE are boring and that their only added value is the best thrower in the game. Hence they suggest that if it is really only that then one may be better off playing other elf races.

That is a bit limited imho. The main HiE value proposition is not just the best thrower in the game (which may yield limited value if at all) but rather the combination of a)AV8 on the majority of the players and b) four ST3 MA8 Catchers. That is really HiE´s. No other elf team gives you that combo of AV8 all around and ST3 with MA8. The Thrower is just a bonus.

As a result HiE allow you for a team that in the medium and long term has a very solid and stable access to both the running and passing game. Probably the elf race with most play options once somewhat developed (1300+), making it the least boring in my eyes!

The price to pay for that "solidity" is a clear lack of skills at start, hence a starting HiE coach has to be a patient one indeed. This tend to put off lots of coaches, understandably so.

[sunnyside]

Thanks for the feedback. Lemmi see if I'm analyzing this right.

So in addition to the thrower, the HE do have a unique blend of raw stats compared to their cousins.

The pro elves put the same MA and strength on the board, but five more of their guys will have AV7 instead of AV8.

Dark elves will frequently put the same AV and strength on the board, but they bring MV7 instead of having four MV8 players.

Wood elves have crazy speed and a treeman, but a whole lot softer armor and str2 catchers.

So one could argue that HE have a stat advantage at the expense of skills.

However skills are initially better. Having S2+dodge is usually more survivable than s3 alone and AV7+dodge is usually more survivable than AV8 alone. And dodge is useful on your turn as well. Basically the same deal for block.

Sidestep is good stuff too, especially for breaking up the 2:1 grind which is often what elves have to do to win.

So "out of the box" and while players are making their first and maybe second skill picks, the HE are probably the weakest of the elves.

However once you're looking at 3rd and 4th skill picks for most of the team, the HE stat advantage could debatably make them the best of the bunch. He might also start doing a better job of spreading out and hanging onto SPPs at that point. Some of the other elves can really lose a lot of wind out of their sails after a gangfoul breaks some 200TV player's back.

Though their playstyle might still feel a little bland because they won't have the skillsets for doing crazy multi-leaper plays, elaborate sidestep traps, frenzy chainpush schenanigans, etc.

I'm imagining the playbook against bashier teams is just a run to midfield and then looking for a reciever for a reliable TD on offence, and then on defense set up a solid one step back stack defense on their short drive, and rush the ballcarrier in the backfield on their long drive.

[besters]

They are not a bad team and can certainly be fun to play. like all elves they need to make the 2+'s and they start without dodge which is where they are at a disadvantage.

Given they have to catch up on skills I think this also places them at a disadvantage when you get to higher TV's against bashy teams.

[sunnyside]

Given they have to catch up on skills I think this also places them at a disadvantage when you get to higher TV's against bashy teams.

What do you mean?

I would have expected high TV games against bashy teams would be where high elves would shine in relation to their peers because their AV would let them handle getting popped in the nose by mighty blow, and the strength three catchers would suffer fewer 3D blocks than strength 2 wood elves.

Is it that skills just keep beating AV?

i.e. in terms of survivability and capability

Dodge Av7 > Av8
blodge AV7 > dodge AV8
blodge SS av7 > blodge AV8
blodge SS fend Av7 > blodge SS AV8
blodge SS fend leap? AV7 > blodge SS fend AV8

Essentially that when it comes to skills vs stats, high elves never catch up at any TV. At least not when it comes to breaking up a bashy grind.

[besters]

Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On can mean AV 8 isn't any better than AV 7.

Because you are taking basic skills such as Block and Dodge, there is less opportunity to take other skills such as Fend, Strip Ball, Tackle etc which help you to survive and get the ball.

[Viajero]

Claw, Mighty Blow and Piling On can mean AV 8 isn't any better than AV 7.

Because you are taking basic skills such as Block and Dodge, there is less opportunity to take other skills such as Fend, Strip Ball, Tackle etc which help you to survive and get the ball.

Compared to Pro elves for example, that is only true from the blitzers with the additional sidestep, the rest (9+ pieces of which maybe 4 or 5 linos minimum!!) is all AV7... Compared to Dark, the difference is those 2 additional blizters with block. Wicthes have dodge but are AV7 like woodies. Given that even at high levels not all your opponent pieces will be Claw, MB, tackle killers, you will also be hit by "standard" ones quite often. The High Elf advantages still hold there: ST3 mobility, AV and passing. All in all I would not be able to conclude that at high leves HiE are really at a disadvantage for the reason you mentioned... The only "facts" we may have is the racial tables in fumbbl. In those HiE come up as quite efficient and on the top 5 or so at high levels actually.

At team strength (good enough proxy for TV) around 1000, HiE feature at the bottom of the tables. At around 1300 they are already at around 11 among the 21 races. At 1500 they are in 9th. At 2000 they are in 2nd, behind woodies...

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... &bracket=3

[mattgslater]

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=647457

I love having AV8 linemen. Compared to Pro Elves, it's like a 5+ save on AV breaks for the guys who take the most hits.

Catchers are great, but you don't need 4.

Lots of great starting builds. My faves are the 2 and 3 RR builds, either with 3 RR, 2 Blitzers and one Thrower/Catcher (either), or 3 RR and 4 Catchers, or 2 RR, 2 Blitzers, and 2/1 or 3/0 Catchers/Throwers.

Go to Plasmoid's site. I wrote the playbook there. It's short and simple, but the truth is, if you stick to Block/Wrestle, Dodge, and Side Step, with just a few toolbox skills (from a menu of mostly Tackle, Kick, Leap, Strip Ball, Dauntless) and focus on Guard for doubles, that AG4/AV8 pays off on the pitch, and the difference-maker Catchers pay big dividends. It's also good having a bona fide Thrower.

[sunnyside]

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=647457

I love having AV8 linemen. Compared to Pro Elves, it's like a 5+ save on AV breaks for the guys who take the most hits.

Catchers are great, but you don't need 4.

Lots of great starting builds. My faves are the 2 and 3 RR builds, either with 3 RR, 2 Blitzers and one Thrower/Catcher (either), or 3 RR and 4 Catchers, or 2 RR, 2 Blitzers, and 2/1 or 3/0 Catchers/Throwers.

Go to Plasmoid's site. I wrote the playbook there. It's short and simple, but the truth is, if you stick to Block/Wrestle, Dodge, and Side Step, with just a few toolbox skills (from a menu of mostly Tackle, Kick, Leap, Strip Ball, Dauntless) and focus on Guard for doubles, that AG4/AV8 pays off on the pitch, and the difference-maker Catchers pay big dividends. It's also good having a bona fide Thrower.

Is that team yours, or just an example of a high elf team that's got a good record?

I notice they didn't go for accurate on their thrower. I wonder if they play more of a stalling running game and just throw to distribute the SPPs and safely finish the drive.