Cyanide releases their Khorne Roster

[Jimmy Fantastic]

The last thing the game needs is a Khorne team to be fair.
I like the mass frenzy, but why does the game not need another bash team? If anything another bash team would add variety in races.
Giving the pitfighters S access would be bad in the respect that it would invalidate the crappy positionals somewhat.
Making the "Boodletters" AG4 could be an idea - it would certainly steer them away from bashing.

[dode74]

The last thing the game needs is a Khorne team to be fair.

No argument from me.

why does the game not need another bash team? If anything another bash team would add variety in races

Playing a different "race" with a very similar playstyle to other races does not, imo, add variety to anything other than the types of figures you see on the pitch - a dwarf roster is a dwarf roster whether you call it dwarves, gnomes, munchkins or half-orcs. The aim was to add a different playstyle to those we see already, and comments so far seem to suggest we managed that. Given the choice we'd have called it something very different, ofc.

Making the "Boodletters" AG4 could be an idea - it would certainly steer them away from bashing.

People whinged enough when we gave them A access. You think giving them AG4 would go down better?

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Yeah S access would turn them into Pact without an Elf but with a decent big guy and team wide Frenzy instead of Claw. The team-wide frenzy makes them different enough from all the other races imo, but there you go.
Well I think the vast majority of the whinging was the about the fluff disconnect - not directed towards the roster or you really. If you just think of the Bloodletter as a Runner then 6347 and A access seems fine.

[MattDakka]

There's bashing and there's bashing. As Jimmy says they are a bash team, although in an odd way. With so much Frenzy they are potentially able to roll more block dice than any other team (both a boon and a curse), but they are not a pure strength bash team - i.e. they do not rely on MB and PO to cause the cas. That's what I mean by not intending them to be a bash team - the traditional sort.

Everybody knows that the real bashing involves either Clawpomb or Pomb, the sheer volume of weak hitting blocks (quantity of unmodified AV rolls) is not like the quality of modified AV/injury rolls with Clawpomb/Pomb, the true bashing combo in CRP.

Which is what we tried to do with the fluff we were given.

They gave you rubbish fluff and you made a rubbish Khorne team (mind, not a rubbish team, but a rubbish Khorne team), you should have refused to help making that ridiculous team.
The joke teams are more serious than Daemons of Khorne team, at least they are not misleading-associated to a god.

Well I think the vast majority of the whinging was the about the fluff disconnect - not really directed towards the roster or you really.

Exactly, nothing personal against the roster or its makers but against the fluff disconnect.
The frenzy suits Khorne but the lack of damage skills doesn't.

[dode74]

Everybody knows that the real bashing involves either Clawpomb or Pomb, the sheer volume of weak hitting blocks (quantity of unmodified AV rolls) is not like the quality of modified AV/injury rolls with Clawpomb/Pomb, the true bashing combo in CRP.

More successful blocks = more cas, just as modifiers to AV/injury rolls does. I'm not suggesting that they are as efficient as the "pure" bash teams (which is exactly what we didn't want), but their efficiency at bash is increased because of it. We're heading into the realms of what qualifies as bash, agi, hybrid etc, and that's a very subjective subject.

you should have refused to help making that ridiculous team.

It's easy to make judgements like that without all the facts. Once you've descended from the high horse you might consider that by being involved it prevented us from getting something much, much worse.

[MattDakka]

Everybody knows that the real bashing involves either Clawpomb or Pomb, the sheer volume of weak hitting blocks (quantity of unmodified AV rolls) is not like the quality of modified AV/injury rolls with Clawpomb/Pomb, the true bashing combo in CRP.

More successful blocks = more cas, just as modifiers to AV/injury rolls does. I'm not suggesting that they are as efficient as the "pure" bash teams (which is exactly what we didn't want), but their efficiency at bash is increased because of it. We're heading into the realms of what qualifies as bash, agi, hybrid etc, and that's a very subjective subject.

you should have refused to help making that ridiculous team.

It's easy to make judgements like that without all the facts. Once you've descended from the high horse you might consider that by being involved it prevented us from getting something much, much worse.

If you want a hard hitting blitzer the first skills you get are MB, PO, Tackle/Claw, MB, PO, Tackle, not Frenzy.
I understand that you didn't want a pure bash team, but the team's name is wrong and misleading.
it's Khorne, the god of pure bashing, killing, maiming.
Much worse? For example?
A proper heavy bash Khorne team with clawpomb?
I would have liked it, at least it would have been a properly-themed team.

[dode74]

I would have liked it

[MattDakka]

I would have liked it

It's not about "trying to please everyone", it's about "not sticking to the fluff".

Khorne is the well defined god of senseless violence and bloodshed.

[dode74]

Game play > fluff.

We're not going to agree here. I can live with that.

[Wifflebat]

Also, don't confuse game results with team personality when "sticking to the fluff." I know nothing about Khorne as a Warhammer faction, and very little about them as a team, so I feel no investment in either, but I would say that if you told me that a race is all about killing and savagery, Frenzy would absolutely be my first pick for a skill to give them. It might not make for a well-built Blood Bowl team (or even a Blood Bowl team that gets the most casualties), but the fluff is saying "hey--these guys are out of control. Mad killers." Not that they've designed a Blood Bowl team that's the ultimate killing machine, but that they're such lunatics that their bloodlust makes them less efficient. They're made for war, not sports. That doesn't seem hard to explain. What am I missing?

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
Again - could we not do the fluff discussion again?
I really don't want to be the guy who derailed this useful thread.

Dode said

Or perhaps he's actually trying to stick to the feel of each team while altering performance, an aim which would require knowledge of the original intent behind the teams.

Indeed.
Apart from the Tier1.5 thing, it's not my purpose with NTBB to radically change the way any roster plays.

Yes, there are a few Things about the fluff that I find hard to swallow, but I think I'm happier with it than a lot of other people. And whether I like the concept/fluff should be largely irrelevant to the NTBB tweak(s).

So I have no problem with Khorne being the 'sideline sacrifice team'. Nor do I have a problem with them not mutating - I think that isn't a big stretch for Khorne to have non-mutating followers, and certainly not the Daemons. Non-S-access linemen is a Means to an end, even if CPOMB is a lot less broken in NTBB/CRP+. I do think that the bloodletters are a bit wuzzy, but so be it. I'm more annoyed be Heralds not regenerating (either daemons do, or they don't). And I don't think the Thirster feels anough like a Thirster (i'd settle for way less than ST10, BTW).

I do think that for them to be tier 1 (in NTBB), they need something.
For fluff reasons I'm changing the names to: Lineman, Khorngor, Bloodletter, Bloodthirster. Khorngor explains lack of regen.
They need something as a starting team - perhaps something dealing with just how much TV is tied up in blitz-action skills.
Perhaps Khorngor/Herals could have block rather than jugger. Would also make bloodletters more Unique. It would be a big deal, but you also pay a lot for what Little he brings to the team currently.
Also, I'd love for the Bloodthirster to feel more like a Bloodthirster. I've been thinking about ST6. It feels so puny to see him blocked so easily by other big Guys. But ST6 might be over the top. (Or would it really be? The team is not good). Alternatively, as stated, Leap and VVL could simulate his wings.
I know it may seem a bit silly. But a Thirster has wings and flies. That's a Thirster. Admittedly, it would rarely Work. But I think the threat is something to be feared: straight 5+ to get on the other side of the opposition and blitz towards the sideline! I'm certain that when attempted, it would be a moment of pure terror. (And Dode, I think that the team is overcosted enough, and the skills marginal enough, that they could be added for no cost).

Cheers
Martin

[Heff]

Personally I could not give a flying about the fluff, its how they play that interests me. Not that I have ever played with or against them, too many of the other 23 teams we have for me to get through first,

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I think you can add regen to the "Herald" for free. I also find the lack of it disturbing.
You could make the Thirster S6 and drop horns, as the original models didn't have them.

[dode74]

If you want to put them into Tier 1, Martin, I'd probably go for cheaper rerolls and Regen on the Heralds for 10k. The two would probably balance out in cost terms and it's a definite buff both in the short term (rr cost) and the longer term (survivability).
Having played a good number of games against Khorne the Thirster does not need a buff for two reasons: he's really very, very good as he is; and once he is gone (once down he is a foul-magnet) the the team falls apart. Buffing something else instead would help for when that happens.

[Smeborg]

@Smeborg. Thanks. They Again it would be interesting to know what "better than expected Means".

My current team has gone 7-1-2 so far this season (we are at mid-point). I would have expected something like 5-3-2, which would be below average for me (we are a growing league, some of our coaches are inexperienced). The team seems "lucky", but maybe I am also starting to get the hang of it.

Note that a 7-1-2 record suggests that the team is tier 1 already (whatever tier 1 is). I suggest it doesn't need any "improvement".

The team is difficult to master. My first Khorne team (slightly different environment) has a 6-1-5 record. Like other such teams, stats may mislead (coaches will stop playing the team out of frustration, leaving a record of poor performance).

I don't see a good case for changing any aspect of the team. I think it would be very easy to make the team too powerful, even with 1 or 2 small changes. Costs and skill access are very well pitched IMO. I like the style of games that Khorne produce, this is what makes me stick with teams more than any other aspect, I think. When both coaches like the style of the game, I think you are onto a winner.

All the best.