Second skill for Wrestle Linos?

[mattgslater]

Hey, all.

I'm playing an Amazon team in a scheduled league. Here is my TFF blog. This league is supposedly very deadly, and a little film study says I'll probably do okay here, but will suffer a lot of turnover. Not being particularly good at playing man-down (I'm conservative with odds but aggro with strategy, and when you lose men you have to give up one or the other of those), and being allowed to skill everybody once, I'm running a 16-player roster, and using the doubles for Guard so I can max out on MB for Blitzers. Still, going into a developed format, I'm going to find myself out-everything-but-bashed on a regular basis. For this reason, I'm really looking hard at what to do with my 2-skill linemen, because soon I suspect I will have a lot of those and a lot of rookies.

For convenience, my team (all @ 6 SPP except as noted):
Blitzers: All four have MB. One is MA7 and 16 SPP, one is 11 SPP, and one has Guard, Tackle, and 48 SPP.
Catcher: Just one: Block, Guard, 27 SPP.
Linewomen: Eleven!
1x Block, Kick, Strip, 38 SPP.
1x +ST, 1x +MA, 2x Guard (one has 10 SPP)
1x Block, 2x DP (one has 11 SPP), 3x Wrestle (one has 11 SPP)
4TRR, 1.8M range, about 300k Treasury.

10 of my 14 opponents have been set: Chaos Dwarfs, Chaos Pact x2, Dark Elves, Khemri x2, Orcs, Skaven x3. The other four will be either a terrifying gauntlet of Chaos, Dwarfs, Elves, and Lizardmen, or a less-terrifying gauntlet of Elves, High Elves, Skaven, and Undead. The CD, Pact, DE, and Khemri teams are all much larger than mine, well over 2M, as are many of the teams I might play. Others will be built along the lines of mine. The Skaven teams are returning, but very badly bloodied, they'll be like halfway between us and the developed teams: a lot of one-skill players, plus star GRs.

My thinking is this: if I can't get man-up, I'm toast. I need to foul, POMB, and otherwise play like an inconsiderate savage just to have the barest chance at victory. I need to bring menz down, or none of it matters. I also need to stay on my feet. There's just no answer to this team except to trust in Nuffle, I think. But nobody else has any TPOMB whatsoever (it's possible the Pact could have one or even two in our second meeting).

Tradition says, and smart coaches like Hitonagashi and BattleLore keep telling me, that Fend follows Wrestle for a lina. I'm a little concerned about that approach. I do it all the time in Ranked, and my Fend players just seem to constantly get killed, though that is in part because they are so annoying to play against (no denying that it's a good skill on a Wrodger). Two-skill linas are going to be a hard thing to keep anyway, you know? Also, there's just no way I can get enough Tackle, or any Dauntless, and shoot for Wrestle/Fend linas. My Blitzers have one Tackle, one who's 15 SPP away, and two who need PO or Guard, pronto. I have a Lina who's 13 points away from Tackle. But the four Linas with stats or doubles, they need Block. Then there's the two DPs, who can only really take Wrestle, just as a matter of survival (TV matters less in this league: cutting DPs at 2 skills is for matchmaking and open formats), and the Block Lina, who is my SH target (a little concerned about needing 10 points for SH, but them's the breaks), and will probably spend enough time on LOS duty that she may never get it. So that leaves the Wrestlers.

Is this plan smart?
1) Forget about Fend, or rather, make Fend the "Pro Test" skill.
2) DPs get Wrestle next, unless they double (first doubles is always Guard).
3) Wrestlers who skill again go for toolbox skills, which takes them off primary line duty once I have Wrestle DPs. Specifically, the priority is: Tackle, Dauntless, more DP. Tackle or DP follows with Fend, if so lucky; Dauntless follows with Pro.
4) LOS duty is for (in descending order): Wrestle-only players, Wrestle/DP players, Block-only players, rookies, 2-skill Wrestle players, 2-skill Block players.
5) Replace lost positionals with same, and Linewomen after the fourth. Replace up to two lost Linewomen with a Thrower and a Catcher, in that order, as I can spare the bodies off the line. Possibly don't replace all of them, eventually dropping to 15 players.

Does this sound solid?

[Smeborg]

Amazon coaches that I know swear by Wreste+Fend on Linewomen.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

That's why I posted here, rather than doing it. I'm just wondering if it may be smarter to go for toolbox skills, given that I'm going into a developed (and deadly) format with almost no toolbox whatsoever.

[DixonCider]

wrestle and jump up is amazing

[mattgslater]

Thanks, DixonCider... but JumpUp is a double, and that would be Guard.

[burgun824]

My thinking is this: if I can't get man-up, I'm toast. I need to foul, POMB, and otherwise play like an inconsiderate savage just to have the barest chance at victory. I need to bring menz down, or none of it matters. I also need to stay on my feet. There's just no answer to this team except to trust in Nuffle, I think. But nobody else has any TPOMB whatsoever (it's possible the Pact could have one or even two in our second meeting).

Sounds like you're getting the hang of this league really quick.

I'm super PO'ed that JPP was killed in the last game of the regular season. I could really used him wth you bringing Zons to the division.

In my experience if you're looking for some extra longevity in this league you go with fend. It is your freind. I've started using it on my linos just so I don't have to pay for a ton of them. But also keep in mind that everyone will start out with the same amount of cash. I think it will be 500k. That's what it was last year I believe. Check with Jeffro or fitzy on that though. Regardless, it takes the sting out of spiralling exspenses and replacing linos a bit.

I'd also consider tackle on some though. As you've noted in your other thread my team suffers from not having enough tackle. I was making due with JPP as my dodge targeter from the backfield but he's gone now and I'm probably even more hosed then I was last season without it. Plus it will make a good piece for ball striking.

[mattgslater]

We've got Cleaveland and Cincinrati this year to consider, too. One Tackle just isn't enough. I see the value in Fend as a #2 skill for linas, but I need a Tackle and a Dauntless too. I'm just wondering which to try to make do without. Ultimately, the plan is to have 3 players on a Tackle track and 1-2 on a Dauntless Track, on the grounds that I will often be without one of them.

More I think, more I think two DPs is enough, so it's really just two players I'm thinking about.

[burgun824]

...I think two DPs is enough...

Unless you're me.

But in my defense, skellies aren't good at much unless they've got guard and carrying that much DP helps scare the ClawPombers into being a little more selective.

[DixonCider]

Thanks, DixonCider... but JumpUp is a double, and that would be Guard.

my apologies, thought Amazons had general and agility access. Guard is a way better skill

Fend, tackle, and strip ball would be strong additions

[Digger Goreman]

Someone did a number crunching study that showed wrestle+pro was superior to most other combos for bringing opponents down....

'Zons... meh....

[mattgslater]

Vs non-Dodge, Wrestle/Pro is 5/6 to pow or Wrestle on 2d, slightly less than 2d/2d Frenzy, but more consistent, with no follow-up requirement. Vs Dodge, it's 145/216, a shade over 2/3, not quite as good as Wrackle (but close). This math assumes skull-outs as "other" btw, I'm not factoring in TRRs and I'm assuming that you'll TRR a skull-out (only) with or without Pro, and use Pro (only) on a push.

I'm not taking Pro as a #2 skill on anybody. After Dauntless or Tackle, and probably after Fend even if I go the Dauntless-first route, yes, I'll look at Pro. Pro/Dauntless combos nicely, as does Pro/Tackle/Wrestle. Pro is better than its detractors claim, but that's because it's so situational. It's good for this guy or that guy, usually as a very late skill and part of a combo, like JuPOMB, or as a middling pick to mitigate an anti-skill, like second doubles on a Bonehead/RS/WA player or any time on a Vampire.

I could totally imagine having a Pro Amazon on this team. Eventually I probably will. Maybe more than one. Maybe even by the playoffs. But this is a question of basic team elements: spam-then-toolbox, or toolbox-then-spam? Pro comes after that, for those who should be so fortunate. Convention says spam first, but i'm afraid that if I don't get started on my toolbox early, I never will.

[Smurf]

There is not much in the G box for the line to take.

Fend it what I would take... remember you don't have to use it.

Shadowing? Not great movement.
Dirty Player? Not much help.
Strip ball? Blitzers may have this

Tackle may be useful, gives them some bit when hitting back. Again some for the blitzers IMO.

[mattgslater]

Like I said, it's (Dauntless and Tackle) or all Fend. Those are the choices.

[Smurf]

Dauntless... it annoys all those ST4 players and some ST5s too

[TheDoc]

fend. Keeps them nice and mobile.