Talk Fantasy Football

I've made it to about page 30 of the 101 (!) page "Nurgle Resources" mega thread, and am hoping someone can summarize it.

In particular, what has been the result - in practice - of the "stymie" team build Smeborg advocated? For example, I see Wrestle-Fend being advocated for Pests, Block-SF for NWs, and Block on Rotters. This seems counter intuitive. I'd go Block-MB for NWs, Block-MB on Pests (except for ball carrier), and Wrestle or DP on all Rotters.

I certainly haven't seen the stymie build online - quite the contrary. Most Nurgle teams I play against have gone the Killer route, and I've had some success doing so myself.

I don't want to re-open the debate, but there must be a consensus position on which of the stymie and killer styles yields the best results for Nurgle teams.

Gimli wrote: I don't want to re-open the debate, but there must be a consensus position on which of the stymie and killer styles yields the best results for Nurgle teams.

Ha ha ha ha ha....

Ha ha ha ha...

Ha ha ha ha ha...

Great joke!

[Edit]
To be a bit more useful ...it entirely depends on your style and environment. Having played stymie lizardmen, I'm convinced that stymie nurgle could work, but the entire game I have this nagging feeling that things aren't going right. It's tricky to play bashers without bashing if you are used to player removal. I still don't think that stymie is a good style for 2k TV in MM environment, but I think it could be an interesting weapon in leagues.

There is really only one consensus for online MM Nurgle and that is max bash - both Carnis and I have won a Major on FUMBBL with this build.
Smeborg is the only guy on the internet who advocates "stymie" Nurgle - the fact that it is considered a viable build by anyone is entirely down to him so fair play to him.
To be honest I can see his point in TT leagues as Nurgle are so poor they are reduced to desperation tactics quite regurlarly and the skills he advises work better when you find yourself outclassed by the opposing team.

Thanks Jimmy and Hitonagashi. That's what I thought.

I just started a Nurgle team in TT and went the BON, 4 NW, 1 Pest, 5 Rotter and 2 TRR route. Horrible luck first game, and used up the TRR rapidly each half, leading to an badly time double Both Down without a TRR, and subsequent ball loss, etc. In hindsight, if I started TT again I'd go with one of the 3 TRR builds, as it will be a LONG time till I buy the other 3 Pests, and then start buying TRRs.

If you regret only taking 2 TRRs, best thing you can probably do at this point is pick up Sure Hands on the Pesti asap.

Smeborg's approach appeals to me because it keys off of Nurgle's character, which is in their starting skills, lack of speed, and unique Big Guy. You're paying for those skills anyway, might as well incorporate them into your strategy. Going mindless B/MB is probably best because it's always best in BB (flaw in game design), but imo Nurgle is most interesting when played "in character".

Jimmy Fantastic wrote:There is really only one consensus for online MM Nurgle and that is max bash - both Carnis and I have won a Major on FUMBBL with this build.
Smeborg is the only guy on the internet who advocates "stymie" Nurgle - the fact that it is considered a viable build by anyone is entirely down to him so fair play to him.
To be honest I can see his point in TT leagues as Nurgle are so poor they are reduced to desperation tactics quite regurlarly and the skills he advises work better when you find yourself outclassed by the opposing team.

Just as a point here, there's levels of bash .

I much prefer Stonetroll style than clawmbpo on all mens style. He has a similar record to Carnis, without the stat freak carrier...

The main gist of the discussion was between the merits of killer and stymie build. But that did ignore a more traditional build for bash teams.

This is close to the killer build but with block being the 1st skill on all positionals (some killer builds start with MB) and a bit of guard thrown in as well as tackle and tents later on. I’ve seen a nurgle teams doing ok with taking tents early on warriors.

The killer build works very well in a TV based matchmaking environment as Nurgle have the capacity to be one of the bashiest teams and the FA and regen gives them an attrition advantage over the likes of Chaos and chaos dwarfs. However in an open environment you’ll struggle to find games against non-bash teams as well as being ill equipped to deal with agile teams that are thin on the ground in B or MM.

Stymie is interesting and may be a viable tactic for low TV tabletop tournaments. With expensive re-rolls and players you’ll have to scrimp on something and stymie does limit re-roll usage. Only if a tournament is higher TV and allows skill stacking would the killer build have a shot. Though you could try maxing out on MB for the positionals and DP on the rotters.

So I’d say in a league or open environment the standard build gives you the best chance of winning games and won’t scare off all teams. Plus if you the killer route then expect no mercy when the cas dice are against you.

fidius wrote:If you regret only taking 2 TRRs, best thing you can probably do at this point is pick up Sure Hands on the Pesti asap.

Smeborg's approach appeals to me because it keys off of Nurgle's character, which is in their starting skills, lack of speed, and unique Big Guy. You're paying for those skills anyway, might as well incorporate them into your strategy. Going mindless B/MB is probably best because it's always best in BB (flaw in game design), but imo Nurgle is most interesting when played "in character".

My Pest got 5 SPP in first game (CAS and TD), and SH is his first skill, barring a Stat Increase (although I don't think I'd take MA or AV).

Fully agree that Smeborg's approach is most "in character", and it appealed to me on that basis. Found, though, that when I was out of TRR on T3 of each half I had trouble remembering that appeal, especially when my Foul Appearance virtually never worked. (It stopped one "2 dice my choice" block on me!)

Next game is against an all ST3 team, so maybe the investment in ST will pay off better in that setting.

So, here's how I see the options laid out in that monster-thread.

Stymie
Why? Conservative play rewards low-TV teams with expensive players and re-rolls. Stymie takes few skills to build for, and allows for a fair variety of skill picks and options within its own parameters.
Where? Short leagues, tournaments with chosen skills and no/little skill stacking, any format where TV stays below Spiraling Expenses, any format dominated by elves. Stymie tends to fall apart as the damage mounts, and isn't great in very bashy formats.

Killer
Why? Nurgle peak out at a very high value and can load up on killer skills. The durability of Nurgle Warriors almost offsets the ease of skilling Chaos Warriors, and the big guy is a lot better than Chaos, so over the long run Nurgle can be the hardest-hitting team of all.
Where? Perpetual formats, especially matchmaking formats, and longer scheduled seasonal leagues. This style may have difficulty getting matches in open formats: even when it fails, it's annoying to play against. It may struggle early, before it gets its skill-stacks together.

Conventional
Why? It's tried, it's true, and it works everywhere with every bash team.
Where? Anywhere, of course. But why Nurgle? Could just as easily be Chaos or Orcs or Pact or....

Hybrid
Why? It's not at all hard to throw a little "killer" into a stymie or conventional build, or a little "conventional" into a killer build, and it works great. The conventional build mostly starts with skills like Block and Guard, which are excellent stymie skills too. Stymie elements don't incorporate well into other builds on a small scale (unlike the others), and it's easier to morph from conventional to one of the others than in any other direction.
Where? Anywhere, depending on the hybrid.

Jimmy Fantastic wrote:Smeborg is the only guy on the internet who advocates "stymie" Nurgle - the fact that it is considered a viable build by anyone is entirely down to him so fair play to him.

Grossly untrue.

I do agree with Smeborg (and Jimmy, to his credit!) that stymie Nurgle works best in a league. I played it for two seasons and came with 1-reroll-1 of winning the title. It is very much in character for the team and there are so many other bash teams you can play while only Nurgle can do this style so well.

It is not good in a min/maxed environment, such as FUMBBL Blackbox, but that can be true for lots of builds and ideas. Min/Maxed environments are creativity killers in the extreme.

Matt/Sundevil,

I'd be interested to know what skill choices you would consider be associated with the three styles? For example, take NWs; Stymie - Block/SF/Tentacles; Killer - Block/MB/Claw; Conventioanl - Block/Guard?

I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

Also, great point that Stymie is not a style for Min/Max'ed environments. I have built killer Nurgle teams in Cyanide, but that is not League, and it was helpful to have that reminder.

Conventional
Beast: Guard-SF-cut, with doubles being Block and keeping the career going into Grab at 51 SPP, Multiblock or PO at 76. Two doubles in quick succession is Block-Claw, and that leads to Guard, Grab, Multiblock at the expense of Stand Firm (SF = legend skill in that case). Later, second doubles is Pro: dealing damage isn't as important as keeping your zones intact.
Warriors: Block first for the first two or three Warriors. The last one or two can get Mighty Blow to help them catch up and to add punch to your team. Block guys should follow into Guard, MB guys into Block, with MB and Claw to follow, respectively, then all identical B/G/C/MB at 51. Then you can start looking killer or stymie at 76 with Tents, SF, or PO. You have to decide right away what to do with doubles: all Dodge, SS Warriors, SS but only after Block or B/G, or always ignore.
Pestigors: Block first for everybody, just so you get a chance to see who gets doubles or +stats. Second normal skill should mostly MB, again to farm doubles and stats. But nonetheless, you need a carrier: if you don't manage to roll +AG or Blodge on anybody, probably your second Beast to 16 should go for Sure Hands or Extra Arms (format-dependent).
Rotters: Wrestle or Dirty Player, take your pick. Rotters who get to 16 can go DP-cut, DP-Wrestle, DP-Kick, Wrestle-Tackle, Wrestle-Claw, Wrestle-Fend, depends on the format.

Stymie
Beast: Same as conventional, except that second doubles is never Claw, and Break Tackle becomes a late option. (Not for me, thanks. Break Tackle is for Tomb Guardians and Saurii, and the odd ST5 blitzer; gonna give it to Horkadakk if he makes it to Legend.) If you hit second doubles, Blodge is tempting, and Blodge/SF/Guard/BT sounds like a blast. I'd still do the conventional track, though. Block/Pro big guys are terrifying.
Warriors: Tentacles and Stand Firm are the signature skills. Block and Guard are important, of course. Open perpetual stymie could be fun if you either start out hybrid or manage your value carefully. Doubles could be Dodge late or SS over SF early, or ignore at any time.
Pestigors: One carrier, 1-3 Wrestle/Fend types, 0-2 killstackers, who usually begin with Wrestle or Block rather than Mighty Blow. In my mind, this means 2 and 2 Block and Wrestle with a carrier and a killer, but Smeborg says 1 and 3, with no killstackers.
Rotters: Wrestle first, then Fend or toolbox.

Killer
Beast: Guard-cut, or Guard-Grab-PO-cut, or maybe PO earlier if that's your thing. Block doubles saves career (Multiblock at 76, SF at 176), Claw second doubles, Pro falls to a distant third place, and even then only after Guard.
Warriors: Mighty Blow, Block, Claw, PO, Guard. What's a double?
Pestigors: Block first for the first two, then MB first for the next two. Same track as Warriors otherwise, except for first 10/11/double or the second two-skiller, who becomes a carrier.
Rotters: Dirty Player, then cut. Doubles is MB, for Claw then Block if so lucky.

Minor feedback, not wanting to derail...I like Tents very early in a conventional build in the Warriors.

Also, in Killer, most Nurgle coaches I see go MB/Claw/PO before Block. In the Box, every game counts (as you've only got a certain amount of time before your team gets unlucky and crippled), so they go for SPP's over wins initially.

Also note: Tackle and Frenzy are on killer Pest track, Guard is not, except maybe as a late pick on the carrier.

Thank you Gentlemen!! Very thoughtful and cogent suggestions.

I am playing Nurgle in a short (10 game) TT League (which might go to two seasons), and am tempted to go the Stymie route with it. Have only played one game, though, and since the League is a one game/month format it will be some time till I have to make any decisions! Stay tuned.