Stymie Lizardmen Build?

[Gimli]

In another thread, Hitonagashi made the following interesting comment:

...it entirely depends on your style and environment. Having played stymie lizardmen, I'm convinced that stymie nurgle could work, but the entire game I have this nagging feeling that things aren't going right. It's tricky to play bashers without bashing if you are used to player removal. I still don't think that stymie is a good style for 2k TV in MM environment, but I think it could be an interesting weapon in leagues.

I can understand Stymie Nurgle - Foul Appearance, Disturbing Presence, etc. but Stymie Lizards? Aren't they all about bashing a hole in the other teams defence and having a skink rush in and score? What builds would use for Stymie Lizards?

[RogueThirteen]

Aren't [Lizards] all about bashing a hole in the other teams defence and having a skink rush in and score? What builds would use for Stymie Lizards?

[Disclaimers: All of my experiences are limited to and should only apply to tabletop leagues. Tournaments and online match-making perpetual leagues where saurus development is not a limiting reagent are entirely different species of Lizard teams.]

In my TT league experience: Lizards are sort of like this, if you think that after moving a cage forward having a Saurus blitz a defender out of the way so a ball-carrying skink can run in for the eventual score counts as "bashing a hole in the other team's defense," but really this is no different from what Dark Elf, High Elf, and even Wood Elf often aim to do on offense.

I would never consider Lizards as a "Bashy Team" in the strict sense, because while they do have the highest number of Strength 4+ players, they are outclassed in many ways when pitted against a proper bashy team. First, starting without any Block means you're at a big disadvantage if you plan on throwing a lot of blocks each turn, as you'll eat your rerolls really quickly. Secondly, you always have to keep "skink protection" as your foremost thought, heavily restricting how you can both use skinks (the other 33% of your team) as assists in the blocking war and how you can position your sauri. Secondly, at only a paltry 1 AG you risk really getting your muscle players stuck out of position or entirely cut off (see "skink protection") and they level up so incredibly slowly that by the time a few of your Sauruses start picking up Block, most opposing bash teams will have enough Block and Guard to straight up beat you at the blocking war if you're not really conservative in player placement.


I'm not sure what Hitogashi means by "Stymie Lizards," but I've had very good success in my league (I've won both seasons I played my Lizards) by developing skinks with Side Step and Diving Tackle, as they can make a really nasty screen for opponents to have to get by while you're on defense. This really helps Lizards, I think, because on defense you already lose three sauri to LoS duty and they're likely to spend a good chunk of the half tied up and I find my skinks really have to step up as defenders. The Krox also has his tail, which can help even further pin/roadblock players. Not sure what sort of saurus development would constitute stymie builds, but maybe something like Fend or Stand Firm (though in a TT league, these are hard skills to justify taking before things like Bock, and saurus develop soooooo slowly in TT leagues).

[mattgslater]

This is what Hito means.

[Hitonagashi]

Rogue, I'll try and write a full commentary tomorrow on this (it's late here! )...but what you wrote is how I viewed Lizardmen.

My 'standard' lizardman build for MM is:
Block/MB/Tackle/PO/BT (first saurus to skill follows this skill track)
Block/MB/BT/Guard (second follows this)
Block/MB/BT/Guard (third follows this)
Block/Guard/MB/BT (fourth follows this)
Break Tackle
Break Tackle (5th and 6th take Break tackle, followed by Block. As LOS Bunnies where 50% of your opponents have clawmbpo, they don't last long).
Guard/SF Kroxigor
SS then sack skink. I keep them to DT if I have at least 20 skills on saurii, and only keep one skink with sidestep if I have less than 10 saurii skills.

This is highly effective and pretty much bog standard lizardmen, but I had experimented with the odd SF before, and it had been interesting, so I wondered what a full team of it would do. The team as Matt linked was my experiment. I did have a guard/SF krox as well (died), and when it fielded Silibili as well, there's a lot of immobility going on!

In terms of how it works - it sucks at the moment playing up TV against blodging agile folks (really, 1 tackle and no MB sucks against elves? Never!?). That said, it's been interesting. I think it could work, and it's one of the projects I intend to keep going, to see how it works as it develops.

The main problem I have with it so far is immobility. It's one of those teams that when it's on top, the mass stand firm just locks the entire drive down. Once you start winning, you will end the drive on top. The problem is, because I'm a 'skill behind', I don't have the Break Tackle I need for mobility. The best example is probably this game, which is in a FUMBBL Major (one of the more competitive open tournaments on the site), against one of the best human teams I've played against 500 TV up. I really thought I was going to win it until he cassed out morg on the only hit he got on him (morg rolled triple skull/bd, then got cassed on the return block).

If you watch the replay, the stand firm keeps him locked and prevents him from maneuvering...but when he decides to take a chance and dodge out 3 linemen on 3+ rolls, when it works, I'm suddenly locked in position, as I haven't got the Break Tackle to respond.

[mattgslater]

That team is awesome.

[dines]

Cool with alternative playstyles, but Hito you might take a look at the link in your last post. It directs to a stunty match which you win...

[Hitonagashi]

Hehehe, oops.

Edited!