Talk Fantasy Football

I was noticing that one of the most common mistakes I see for non-new coaches is too much marking.

This is especially true for bashier sides - where it isn't unusual to see people marking up their opposition because they have more ST, Guard, kill skills armor, etc...

Now there certainly are times when you want to mark. That catcher in scoring position on T16? Mark him!

But it seems to me that giving up blocks is a great way to lose the game.

Not only will you take injuries but more importantly you give up positioning.

Thoughts?

Like many things, it depends. For example marking an unskilled Chaos team with dwarves may not be such a bad thing. You're not too likely to get hurt with AV 9 and they have a 1 in 9 chance to need a re-roll on every 2d block.

There's far too many different situations to go into for and against marking up players, but I can imagine many times when it works well.

Itchen Masack wrote:Like many things, it depends. For example marking an unskilled Chaos team with dwarves may not be such a bad thing. You're not too likely to get hurt with AV 9 and they have a 1 in 9 chance to need a re-roll on every 2d block.

There's far too many different situations to go into for and against marking up players, but I can imagine many times when it works well.

Exactly, a more common mistake non-new coaches make is over-blocking and automatically re-rolls on a failed action, even late in the turn. That strategy can be very effective in taking advantage of both those mistakes.

As you said it is great in low TV games when you have high AV and the other side has little or no block. I see loads of coaches doing all their 2D blocks after the safe no dice moves even though they have more important game winning moves to make. A 2D without block has a 1 in 9 chance of failing and if the team only has 1 or 2 re-rolls then that comes round a lot.

Of course once teams have lots of block along with MB/PO/Claw then this tactic can be a recipe for disaster. But even then not always, as casualties are not guaranteed. Plenty of very experienced bashy coaches have no clue how to score if they don't have a significant man advantage.

Now this topic is right down my alley! I'm currently struggling with wrapping my head around this conundrum (and many others!) as I'm making my way through our pretty bashy league with a Necromantic team.

As I've mentioned in the Necro thread, my next match will be against Lizardmen. So, lots of bad marking choices to go around. My guys are lucky enough to both have a MB/Block Werewolf on their side as well as the general Block advantage (2xWights, 2xWolves, 1xGolem, 1xGhoul, 1xZombie, plus 1xZombie with Wrestle vs. 1xSaurus with Block... and the unskilled but MBing Kroxigor). Speaking as a relatively unexperienced coach I can see the lure of trying to pin all the Sauri in place in hope of getting a couple of turns to hunt for Skinks. Now swilhelm has already convinced me to refrain from doing so and instead to run a screen which probably would allow me to pick more of my fights. But then again, my opponent will be able to move his MV6 guys much more easily around my MV4 players.

So it comes to mix & match, make out those players that are a real threat during the next turn if left unmarked, pin them down, while keeping the number of free blocks at a minimum. A skill to master in its own right.

Edit: The dream would be to get into a situation like the beginning of the 2nd half of this match though. Knocking down as many Sauri as possible and keeping them marked for when they get up again, unable reposition without BT. Not unlike a stand-off, now that I think about it.

Without question, the most common mistake most coaches--new and old alike--make is Blaming The Freakin' Dice. I can pull any Let's Play video off the interwebs and, without even watching it, I can safely assume that someone, at some point in the video, can be seen/heard complaining about the dice rolls ... and how it's BECAUSE OF THE DICE--THE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE DICE--that they are losing, or that their players are getting pasted all over the pitch. It never fails. Of course, it's all B.S. The dice--in themselves--are nothing but a set of tools that provide a random result. It's the coach's understanding of team match ups, probabilities of various actions/positioning, and the notion of acceptable risk that determine success in a BB match--it's not the dice ... not on their own, anyway. If that were the case, then why even play the game? Why not just have each coach roll a die at the beginning, and whoever rolls higher--wins! Game over.

A case in point is a game from the TGS Tournament, between TotalBiscuit and Dodger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyQB4kDMZzE

Now, any experienced Blood Bowl coach knows that a rookie Amazon team going up against Dwarfs is going to be rough. Granted, this is a Chaos Dwarf team, so there are a few hobgoblins who will be easier to deal with--but still--all that Block/Tackle ... it just negates the Amazon team's main starting perk, turning them from a psuedo-wannabe-dodgy-elfie-human team into a much slower, but just-as-crunchy, AG3-no skills, Skaven team. So, what does Dodger do? Why, she man's up and just marks every damn Chaos Dwarf player possible with her already-on-the-backfoot Amazons. Which, of course, doesn't end well for her in the long run. I mean, if you're just going to park your whole AV7, "totally countered" team right within arm's reach of the opposing coach's team, what do you really expect to happen?

Dice don't--on their own--determine the outcome of a match. Dodger clearly didn't understand the matchup--at all--and 'went HAM', not realizing TB had already countered her whole team before the game even started. Then she proceeded to play like an Orc coach, marking every player, every turn, as if to say, "Hey, please punch me in the face next turn, ok!!!" It's funny: TB actually let's it all slide until he starts really murdering her players, at which point, he starts to feel bad and begins to offer some suggestions (and condolences): "You might want to just stay away from my guys!" In the end, though, he pitch cleared the entire Amazon team. Watchagonnado, amirite?

And what got blamed? What did they talk about all game long?

Was is Dodger's unrelenting need to play "face check" with TB's Chaos Dwarf's? Was it the complete disrespect for the matchup? Was it the total disregard of what AV7 truly means for a team with no other skills (not really), against a team full of Block/Tackle/AV9? (And all the horrible probabilities that it brings; there is a huge difference between AV7 and AV9, in probabilistic terms.) Was it the complete ignorance and lack of elf-like, one-off, defensive play? (i.e., changing your gameplan away from bash, bash, bash.) Or was it the complete lack of targeting the hobgoblins (TB even goes so far as to say, "The hobgoblins are worse than Amazons in every way." It was like a giant neon sign, saying "Punch The Hobgoblins If You Want To Win!"

Of course not! None of these things got blamed, or were even talked about.

Almost from the first set of blocks the entire match was a gripe-fest about how good TB's dice were, and how--BECAUSE OF THE DICE--he was just 'murderizing' the Amazon team. If only TB didn't have such amazing dice!!!! Things would have been different!! 82% probability of failure be damned!! The DICE! IT WAS THE DAMNED DICE!!!

It's laughable and cringe-inducing all at once.

And, yes, it's the number one mistake most coaches make--old and new--partly because most people suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and partly because many people are unable to view the game from their opponent's point of view, i.e., they don't understand that their actions, player positioning, etc. all have impact in their opponent's turn as well (... and parking your players in positions that get them punched in the face on the very next turn is probably not a good idea.)

I view this kind of thing as a "mistake" because, quite frankly, you'll never get better as a BB coach if all you do is Blame The Freakin' Dice.

Tru dat!

Great post!

I played a guy on fumble recently who not only spent the entire game cursing the dice but then suggested that I was getting more favourable results because I am a fumbbl supporter! Lol

Dessad wrote:Without question, the most common mistake most coaches--new and old alike--make is Blaming The Freakin' Dice. [...]

I can almost taste the rage dripping from this post. While I agree that this is a very frequent misconception I think in your example the mistakes of the coach in question are better explained by the lack of knowledge of the rules. Watching the video I got the impression that Dodger just wasn't familiar with the basics of the game (action sequence, probabilities as determined by stats, when to use the apothecary, etc.).

Having said that, I agree that many people tend to judge actions by the potential successful outcome rather than the risk of that action failing. In the matches I've played so far, some of my opponents worked out really elaborate plans involving many risky actions chained together to achieve one big phenomenal result instead of going for a more controlled and less risky sequence of movements/blocks/etc..

Then again, there are other people that preach the attitude of assessing every action by assuming that it will fail. While that's certainly less likely to result in frustration (you can't be disappointed when you're expecting nothing than failure, right?), it's also not very helpful in developing effective strategies to counter a given play from a weaker position. Sometimes it's plain necessary to take risks in order to get back into the game. As so often, the truth lies in between the extremes. Which is probably what you were getting at with your post. Developing an understanding (some might call it a feeling) of probabilities while mentally projecting the consequences of a failed roll of dice.

outcast wrote:Great post!

I played a guy on fumble recently who not only spent the entire game cursing the dice but then suggested that I was getting more favourable results because I am a fumbbl supporter! Lol

Some coaches there use that as a meta-tactic to either put you off your game or so that you'll get complacent or go easy on them. If you think the game is in the bag you may score early, giving them a chance to equalise. Alternatively if you've taken half their team off the pitch in the 1st half you may not throw so many blocks or foul that key player. Then all their KO's come back and none of yours do and they clear the LOS and suddenly you are players down. I see this quite often in crp where fodder players are removed from the game but vital players only Ko'd, surfed for a stun or apoth'd.

Linked to that is a common mistake of giving up when things start going badly and the game is far from over. This is often linked to moaning about how unlucky you are, but there have been plenty of examples of teams coming back to draw or win from seemingly hopeless situations. However giving up removes even that possibility.
It also sucks the fun out of the game for the other player, the only thing less fun than playing someone who really wants to win is facing someone who doesn't care at all. But again this can be a sneaky tactic to encourage you to go easy and try that mummy long bomb.

I suffer from the Dunning-Kruger Effect...

...and I blame it on the dice.

So when my opponent beats me, and comments that the dice really killed me (for example, Besters at Exiles) does that mean they've made a mistake?

That is a beautiful rant and some major points that reflect why Blood Bowl is easy to learn but hard to master.

In order of priority :
1) learn to plan for failure. High - risk comes with big gain so 2) learn the rules and what probability really is about. Think moves through and understand that the more rolls you make the more certain one will fail.
3) I was tempted to put on 1: positioning and how it interacts with the rules.
This is difficult to learn from theory alone. You have to experience failure to understand it. You also need to feel bad about it that you made the mistakes and not the dice. If you really feel the sting, then you won't forget it as likely
4) be flexible. Don't hold on to certain believes if they don't work for you.
It simply might be that the team you play doesn't match your preferred play style. Keep questioning your tactics and strategy as they need to be adapted to the actual situation, not what is true in general.
Sure there are certainties but I recently discovered that rookie WE can be very bashy because they start with leap, which always influences the go-to play of the opponent . I taught that armour is most important to stay alive. Not getting knocked down is much more important I realized.

Sure this is self-evident but that is what made me overlook this fact completely for 10 years.

Darkson wrote:So when my opponent beats me, and comments that the dice really killed me (for example, Besters at Exiles) does that mean they've made a mistake?

That solely depends on who is that opponent.
And even if your opponent is genuinely interested in giving honest feedback. I am more interested in what I could have done to improve my game other than hoping for better dice rolls.

There is of course the occasional dice rape but then you need to RR double skulls into the same result twice or equivalent. If you plan for failure to happen all the time as first thought before you continue adding more dice rolling actions, you now will be able to put free moves into positions to make it more difficult for your opponent to take advantage of a turn-over.

I always try to force my opponent to make many 1d6 rolls as at least one in six will fail!
That said it is clear that giving away 2d blocks isn't the way to do this. You only do this to tie up crucial players during a critical play.

Two of the best posts to ever grace these boards, El Jairo... Merci beaucoup....

Digger Goreman wrote:Two of the best posts to ever grace these boards, El Jairo... Merci beaucoup....

Thank you for your kind words Goreman