Talk Fantasy Football

<Ancalagon> In our gaming club it's completely impossible to play gentle... and fouling it's an important part of strategy. (from the Dwarf thread)

It's interesting to hear that on this board. While I regularly play against players who play a fairly brutal game I have, with one notable exception*, never lost a game against a coach who made fouling the centre of their strategy. In my current league most players started out heavy on the fouling but came around to a very different style of play after I ran away with game after game.

I am personally firmly convinced that a coach who fouls situationally ("on-the-ball" fouls) will always do better than a coach who regularly fouls for attrition simply due to the fact that their team is deployed towards control of the pitch and scoring whereas the fouling player wastes players' turns moving in for the foul. This viewpoint has been borne out by numerous games against such players. I eventually retired from the OLBBL because I was sick of so rarely getting a good game against a strong opponent and ended up facing hordes of muppets who honestly believed that fouling non-stop was a winning strategy.

There seems to be a large minority of players who honestly believe that attrition fouling is a league-winner and will happily build their teams for murder.

IMHO these players will never beat a good all-round coach and will continually be playing catch-up against teams that play to score and win as the scoring teams will rack up more SPPs through TDs and comps, and more money through wins. This leads to a viscious cycle whereby the fouler makes their team more and more lethal, taking more pride in their ability to decimate a team than to win a match.

BB2k1 introduced some good changes to ameliorate this. Removal of SPPs for fouling (hooray!) seems to have stopped the proliferation of dirty players with obscene amounts of SPPs and the IGMEOY rule helps encourage a balanced consideration as to whether a foul is strictly necessary.

What have other coaches found? While it is tedious playing murder teams, does anyone actually have any trouble beating them? What strategies do people usually adopt against such coaches? What about a league such as Ancalagon's where most coaches foul - do you muck in and play the foul game or do you build your team all the more for scoring?

Marcus

*The game in question was an online playoff where I was an 80TR underdog with dwarves vs fouling undead. After 2 turn scoring with 6 dwarves he managed to win in the last turn with a long bomb to a mummy in the endzone.

i agree with you. When i play elf , i dont foul and prefer scoring and winning.
but some of my friend (in my league) have this sneaky Pro-Dirty player that just made 8 casualties against a dwarf team.
he won 3/0. And he never get sent off (lucky one).
Foul play is not beautifull but sometimes it works...argh
i prefer on-ball foul as you said when this is important or i dont mind about strong fouling if this is without those damn skills.

But i think that in a league ,some will see that destroying a team is not a good thing cos next games will be easier for the opponents of this destroyed team and they will get easiers points.

Fouling has a part to play but it's over abuse can certainly not only spoil a friendly game but also with IGMEOY, should hopefully deplete the fouling teams ranks.
Sometimes it doesn't always work that way. At the moment in a practice game my opponent has fouled me 3 times with noresponse from me and the IGMEOY has not rolled against him once. "But i still believe time will tell and when he only ends up with 6 players on the field from being sent off, then i shall have the last laugh". Ooops sorry got a bit carried away there.

_________________
McDeth,

“ By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes “



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: McDeth on 2002-04-04 14:51 ]</font>

Interesting topic....

I regard fouling as an important facet of BB, but not an essential one. I think it is difficult to generalise because circumstances can dictate different styles of play, no matter what the team.

Having said that, I think fouling suits some teams more than others (usually based upon cost). My Chaos dwarf team of old had a couple of very viscious Hobgoblins armed with knitting needles and dentist tools, but none of my present Dwarf team have dirty player, largely because I do not want a 70K longbeard sent off for fouling a 30K halfling unsuccessfully.. The best foulers are skeletons I think, becuase they are cheap, relatively able to get to a downed opponent quickly, and have no morals (nor should they!)... Fouling also suits gobbos, skaven and any other cheap basic players that need to pick on the prone..

I would never foul with an Elf (cost and ethics) unless it was absolutely essential or the ref was not present.

I guess it's up to certain players, up to certain teams etc to decide if it suits them. The only team with which I would foul every turn no matter where the Ref was looking would be with Snots, because they are cheap and it fits the image I think...

Happy fouling...

_________________
"If something is easy it isn't worth doing.."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Norse on 2002-04-03 14:11 ]</font>

I would probably foul a lot when I played 3ed, becuase there could be an advantage to do so with a number of rerolls to keep you safe. But I am yet to foul with BB2K1 in our new season as the trade off is not enough and I am trying to round out my game with other options.

I may be tempted if a highly valued positional player is prone at the feet of 4-5 linemen with no tackle zones and IGMEOY in neutral territory, but that would most likely be it for the match. I did rack up 48 casualties with one player through fouling in 3ed, but he is a dinosaur in this fast paced time of BB2K1, his like will never grace my teams again.

I can't help it ... if i see a mummy or a black orc knocked, i always search for my dirty player around! It's been like that for ages!

I'm with Norse on this, don't get me wrong. Fouling is part of the game, but you can't risk much doing so. (Hobbos have really nice iron boots for this!)

As part of the game, slow teams have to take this actions to prevent beign overpassed by those 9MO + VeryLongLegs + WhatEvertheSkill skaven, or simmilar players. If it is scoring what counts, and you want to make the game balanced, then take away those skills, in the same you have penalized using dirty player (no SPP, IGMEOY, etc ...)

Just imagine Dwarves of Chaos Dwarves not fouling at all. I imagine them beign passed over by those passing + running + scoring teams, when they only can do ONE TD each half!

That's why i defend fouling as a way to balance the game for slower teams ...

regards
TiMuN

I Agree with the racial characteristics /ethics point of view. If i was playing with Goblins ( not that i do, and if i did i'd never own up to it ) i think i probably would foul more regularly as it fits nicely in with their character.
However on the same basis that means i shouldn't foul with Halflings. If i followed that ethic through then i would not be making use of my numbers advantage and

STOP! i am going around in circles here. i talking a load of Bo*****s help me someone.
I need Oxygen

_________________
McDeth,

“ By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes “



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: McDeth on 2002-04-04 14:51 ]</font>

Agree with Timun and Norse. I usually don't foul, but I'll do if some unbalancing player of the op. team is prone. And of course if I've been fouled sistematicaly I'll try to destroy the op. team, doesn't matter how.
If we talk about tournaments, I think I'll foul but not in the stupid way, I wont try unless the result don't covers the risk of playing with one player less.
But I think I'm not alone with this thinking

I've got no problems fouling tactically, but not as an attrition strategy. Targeting of opposition key players is the way to use fouls, and I think most teams should have a DP for this purpose.
I agree with Marcus that the removal of SPPs, IGMEOY and the changes to DP pretty much reduce fouling from a strategy to a tactic, which is exactly how it should be.

Couldn't agree more..

It was the only way to play in 3rd Ed..

There was a deliberate attempt for 2K1 to clean up the game a bit which is why dirty player is no longer as dangerous as it was, why no SPPs, and why IGMEOY really makes life awkward for systematic foulers...

Fouling is like Piling On.. good when it works, fatal when it does not..

I have managed to convert a Skaven holding a hooked metal bar behind his back though...

I have managed to convert a Skaven holding a hooked metal bar behind his back though...

I want to see that mini!!

Give me time to paint it!!!!!

His first skill will be dirty player, no doubts...

Hey Anthony, where's my piccies gone?

I will try to get them up today, been pretty busy this week

Great post as usual, Marcus. Allow me to give you guys a brief "timeline" of fouling since the release of 3E Blood Bowl.

STAGE I: Third Edition Blood Bowl is released to rave reviews. The game moves faster and plays more fluently than its Second Edition predecessor. A Foul gives you a +1 to the AV roll for every adjacent standing player. Fouls are popular, but no one cares about any long-term impact. Everyone is playing one-off games.

STAGE II: Death Zone comes out. It introduces league rules, new skills, and Star Player Points. Foulers now have skills that affect a Foul action and incentive to use those skills in league play. Dirty Player and Mighty Blow begin to receive widespread plays in leagues.

STAGE III: White Dwarf 182's Q&A is released. It states that you can't combine skills that add bonuses to a die roll. This rules out the dreaded MB/DP +4/+3 combo, but otherwise does little to affect the fouling game. DP continues to be the skill du jour of any Lineman, regardless of race.

STAGE IV: Jervis Johnson introduces the concept of the IGMEOY counter to the Blood Bowl Mailing List. It stipulates that a coach who fouls an opposing player will draw the attention of the ref, with the result that he will be caught on his next foul unless he rolls doubles on the AV roll. Many coaches denounce this as draconian. Those who use it seem to like it, but admit that it almost removes fouling from the game entirely. Many alternate methods of controlling "the fouling problem" arise on-line and in local leagues. This stage lasts for a long time.

STAGE V: The fabled "Fourth Edition" rules - not to be confused with the 2001 Rules Review set - are released. They codify IGMEOY as a permanent feature of the game. Fouling begins to go out of style, because a fouled team can simply "hold" the IGMEOY counter and play the game as they wish.

Some time during Stage IV, John Lewis and Doug Webber gain support for the "Ref Roll," a separate d6 that indicates whether the referee spots the fouling player. The Ref Roll represents a fairly significant change, because the fouling coach can no longer control the chances of getting caught. This change is not directly incorporated into the Fourth Edition rules, but a new rule prohibiting the use of re-rolls on AV and injury rolls is part of the new rule set.

STAGE VI: After some preliminary testing, the BBRC incorporates the Ref Roll with IGMEOY, but with a twist. Instead of getting caught five times out of six with the Eye on you, your team is caught only half the time (4+ roll). This lessens the impact of the "hold the counter" strategy.

Later, the 2001 Rules Review is released. It features defensive assists, the Ref Roll, IGMEOY (4+ when the Eye is on a team), and the prohibition against re-rolling AV and injury. In addition, it removes the SPP incentive to foul, relegating Dirty Player to a niche skill rather than a player-builder. Finally, it prohibits the use of Blocking skills (MB, Claw, RSC) on Fouls.

So that's where we are right now. More in a moment.

-Chet

Fouling is unfair, so be gentle don't use it.

Trambi, coach of bright crusaders