Talk Fantasy Football

Chris wrote:Does anyone have the data for humans in FUMBBL and Cyanide league environments?

(And perhaps more pertinently how the best players do with each race - is for instance their ability with humans consisently less than other races?)

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=teams ... r=6&nav=10

I'd say not. These are the top teams in the Box by number of wins. Note, the win percent of the humans isn't significantly different to the other top teams.

I just remembered something, back when deathzone came out and we only had 12 teams High Elves were the only team with ST3 Catchers, whilst Humans, Skaven and Wood Elves all had ST2 on their catchers. I'd argue ghouls and witch elves are more specialist and not really catchers.

But back then GW decided to make BB much closer to fantasy which is why we had witch elves, trollslayers and gutter runners. For the High Elves they decided to name the positionals after the elite troops for High Elves so Dragon Warriors (Princes) for Blitzers, Phoenix Warriors (Guard) for Throwers and (White) Lion warriors for catchers. Back then the White Lions were the only High Elf troops with ST4 and came with 2 handed weapons so I think that is why there were left as ST3!

Ok, doesn't have that much to do with Human catchers really.

spubbbba wrote:Ok, doesn't have that much to do with Human catchers really.

Actually I think that explains quite a bit. It shows why certain teams are left with ST2 catchers. As other teams were added that had catchers they where given ST3 leaving the humans, WE's, and skaven left with ST2 players. However, it just makes me believe I'm all that more justified in requesting a change on this topic.

spubbbba wrote:I just remembered something, back when deathzone came out and we only had 12 teams High Elves were the only team with ST3 Catchers, whilst Humans, Skaven and Wood Elves all had ST2 on their catchers.
(...)
Ok, doesn't have that much to do with Human catchers really.

Well, I think it's the source of the problem.
Like Kort put it in an earlier post, it's the usual GW power creep, and the Humans got shafted.

I think the change to FF0 starting and high ff has hurt them. They could play the FF game well given their prices. Now thats not there is has knocked their early game which affects them down the line as well.

Humans should be adaptable, right? So give them two level-up rolls to choose from!

Juriel wrote:Humans should be adaptable, right? So give them two level-up rolls to choose from!

I like the idea at a level up humans get the opportunity to reroll for their skill but they have to accept the second roll even if its worse

I love that idea. However, I think you would start seeing human teams with stat increases become way more common. I had an 8448 blitzer once...he was a dominate force. So dominate that everyone in my league wanted him dead and I still almost made the league championship with that human team. I can't imagine dealing with those types of players on a more frequent basis. It's like having a light version of a star player permanently on your roster. You're opening the doors for the zealous lot to come in screaming like they do about ClawPOMB.

So unfortunately I don't think it's as practical as just making the catchers ST3.

It seems a shame to break a core rule of blood bowl when you could potentially fix it elsewhere.

Hell why not say a human team can roll the dice (hoping for stats) or assume it rolled double 1 and pick any skill?

spubbbba wrote:I'd argue ghouls and witch elves are more specialist and not really catchers.

I think this is the core of the problem. A player who specializes only in catching the ball is not a great asset, especially if he only has AG3. The Catch skill is very rarely taken since there are often better alternatives. Scoring fast is a losing strategy in Blood Bowl, the exception being one-turn scoring at turn 8/16.

Catcher-type players are mostly useful because of their high speed (one-turning potential, defensive potential as safeties, etc.) and/or access to Agility skills (non-Elves teams), not because they can catch the ball. Gutter Runners and Werewolves are considered well-rounded players and they are perfectly able to score as well as so-called Catchers.

The design of the Human roster was well-intentioned, loosely based on a gridiron football team, with well defined and straigthforward positions. However it ended up with an overdeveloped offensive line, but it lacks defensive specialists, leaving glaring weaknesses in the line-up.

A little insight into how badly Humans fare at high TV - they have NEVER won a major on FUMBBL: http://fumbbl.com/help:FUMBBL+Major+Tournament+Winners

(I note that no undead sides of any kind have done it either, also a victim of skill access, see below)

I'm of the opinion that they are victims of power creep - I'd love to take the nerf bat to a lot of rosters to reign them back (0-2 Black Orcs on the Orc roster, for example), but it's probably easier to pimp the Humans slightly.

One of the things they lack at high TV is wide enough access to Strength and Agility skills - this is where Chaos and Dark Elves do so well, as they just keep getting better beyond 2000 TV.

I'd be happy to see the Catchers get Diving Catch (it's a skill designed for Ag3 catchers imho), or a Str boost, or beef up the Humans in other ways with a 0-2 Blocker positional (maybe lacking skills to start with, but that's an extra 2 players with Str skill access) instead of two of the catchers. Av8 will be a marginal improvement - ask Slann coaches how well Av 8 works! - though it would certainly help with the way I use them, as harassment players.

The thing I like least is that very few teams pass the ball - it's basically Elves and that's about it, apart from desperation plays. This is why I favour the Diving Catch idea.

IronAge_Man wrote:A little insight into how badly Humans fare at high TV - they have NEVER won a major on FUMBBL: http://fumbbl.com/help:FUMBBL+Major+Tournament+Winners

(I note that no undead sides of any kind have done it either, also a victim of skill access, see below)

Skill access seems to be the main factor, since only Elves and the pure bashers seem to win on a regular basis, the only exceptions being Skavens and one lone Amazon win. Hybrid teams do not seem to do well in general.

I don't think it's only skill access, I think it's starting stats and starting skills too. Chaos start with good stats and no skills so they have lots of development potential with little in the way of diminishing returns; elves (of all types) start with great stats and generally fewer skills (than, say, Norse or Dwarves) so they have good base play and good development potential. Dwarves start with superb skills and poor stats, so they start off efficient and have less development potential, so they are more efficient at lower TVs.

Given that the game design benefits high efficiency and high TV a TV-based MM environment would appear to benefit the teams which are efficient at high TV, but the win% doesn't seem to bear that out. If it did then the solution might be adding house rules (as advocated by the BBRC) which would bring the SE soft-cap brought down so that those teams which grow in efficiency with TV are unable to develop as much. Personally I think that the Nagg limits are pretty good in that respect, and serve a TV-based MM environment pretty well (although I'd probably bring it down a touch more).

Dwarves are surely ultra efficient at high TV's as well? Guard access is a normal skill and they can spam it. Indeed the linemen just get better with the addition of guard, stand firm and mighty blow. The team as a whole has a fair amount of development space left. Humans conversly don't have general and strength to such a high degree. They really need stat boosts - but they are a whole lot more tv inefficent than starting with high stats ala elves or the wonderful gutter runners. I think average stats continues as you develop, but they don't have the wide skill access like dwarves to compensate or the high base rolls like str4 and/or ag4 to improve with skill picks.

So yes a lower cap suits them but I think stuff like the various tweaks and FF0 has boosted others in the early game past them and they lack the decent players to compensate.

I don't think dwarves are as efficient at high (2000+) TV as they are at lower TVs - guardspam puts you at 1220TV, add MB for to everyone 1440, call it an even 1500-1600TV for a VERY dangerous team indeed.

Humans are a good low-TV team (tournaments), apparently.