Talk Fantasy Football

dode74 wrote:I don't think dwarves are as efficient at high (2000+) TV as they are at lower TVs - guardspam puts you at 1220TV, add MB for to everyone 1440, call it an even 1500-1600TV for a VERY dangerous team indeed.

Humans are a good low-TV team (tournaments), apparently.

Though the NAF stats have them as pretty far down. http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb6.html Possibly due to tourneys allowing more skills/higher starting rosters?
Be interesting to see what their number of wins of tourneys by race is to see how well the top players can use them (so of the tourney winners how many times have they used humans to win).

dode74 wrote: Humans are a good low-TV team (tournaments), apparently.

I tend to think this is a myth, or at least the advantge they enjoyed has become moot with the newer rules. Cf the NAF stats, although I think they are a little harsh on Humans since they are likely to be a team played by beginners.

In open leagues, they do not seem to do really well either. In the FOL for instance, there is no Human team in the top 40, and the Human roster rank in the bottom third in terms of percentage of victory (slightly above the 45% limit that characterizes tier 1 teams).

In scheduled leagues, the picture is not as clear but the converging testimonies of several experienced players seem to suggest they tend to run out of steam and become uncompetitive as soon as casualties pile up.

I have yet to see one format where Humans do well.

If one wants adaptability, well, it's easier to get a few doubles as a Dark Elf team and get Guard, than get the stat boosts (and on the right players) to make humans equally competitive.

Being a middle-of-the-roader sucks, because even there, other people can easily end up doing it better than you. It's better to be special at something, than good at nothing.

Juriel wrote:If one wants adaptability, well, it's easier to get a few doubles as a Dark Elf team and get Guard, than get the stat boosts (and on the right players) to make humans equally competitive.

Being a middle-of-the-roader sucks, because even there, other people can easily end up doing it better than you. It's better to be special at something, than good at nothing.

That’s a good point, the changes to TV costs for doubles and stats hurt humans and other hybrids more than specialists as well. Elves just need a couple of doubles for guard as theirs are so mobile, stats on the right players are nice but not vital.

At high TV humans need more than the 5 guards they can get naturally (not to mention the difficulty of keeping all 4 blitzers healthy) so require doubles for linemen and throwers to get guard. The positionals also gain a lot from +MA or AG, usually more than other races.

Without stats or doubles the team does struggle at high TV as the Blitzers will have to do most of the heavy lifting since the rest of the players don’t have many great skill choices. However paying the extra TV for these doubles and stats means the team is either losing out on or giving away inducements to specialised teams that are more efficient.

And to bring the discussion back to catchers they have a below a player with - on an average team - 2 below average stats. If you accept the average is 6/3/3/8 they have problems with two of those numbers and a team with a problem replacing players gets worse...

Hell even the Slann give the catchers Ag4+ - indeed their stats of 7/2/4/7 have 2 boosts and 2 negatives over that standard stat line.

I think the role of Catchers relates to the whole team and its problems.

If we were to just focus on fixing the Catchers, ST3 is the simplest way indeed. They'll be faster to skill up than their elven counterparts, since they already start with Dodge, but they're also clumsier and just as frail, so it will be far from overpowered.

Seriously, AG3 is unreliable as hell. The gulf between it and AG4 is huge, since unskilled AG4 is almost as good as AG3+skill, and AG4 also has a team reroll to fall back on. That alone balances them out compared to Pro/High Elf Catchers.

With ST3 the Human Catchers would also finally be worth something as elf-markers, with Sidestep and Diving Tackle.

I think there are a lot of skills that give the Catcher various roles.

It's a runner. Sprint and Sure Feet. All the catcher does is get the ball and move to another player for a hand off.

It's a catcher. Diving Catch and Sure Feet. This guy is going to get the ball and score!

Another 2 skills could be Dauntless and Juggernaut (on a double)

Defence

It's a grabber. Surehands and Surefeet.

It's daring. Passblock and Shadowing. Going to get into position and follow them.

Just multi task these guys (give them the other skill sets)

The problem I see is getting block first skill. The catcher has to do a lot of work to get a couple of skills that defines them, it has to wait for 31spps.

Of course the block is the 'safe and easy option' and now and the he can join in the punch up.

It has MA8! use it to keep away from stuff. Only give it the ball if it can get rid of it by scoring or handing off.

What the hell give the sucker block and put him into the scrum to be mashed.

Smurf wrote:What the hell give the sucker block and put him into the scrum to be mashed.

I agree
"duh what the F*&^ do you think linemen are for"

Oh I don't carry linemen cause if I bump catchers up to str 3 I can do the 4-4-2-1 option
(blitzers-catchers-throwers-ogre)

and that my friends is the TRUTHFULLY ONLY! reason that people want str 3 catchers

No, I think they want a buff for the human team because they underperform. Catchers are singled out as the worse players so for changes people look at them. Sure you could make a different player better (indeed I have a thread trying to track all the suggestions), but catchers tend to stick out.

If you think with str3 you would start fielding them on the line I look forward to playing a undead team with 4 ghouls captained by you.

Of course you wouldn't put your weakest armoured player on the line. It would remain an Ogre and 2 linemen.

As for suggestions on how to use them better. of course there are many ways to better employ them. Just as there are many ways to better use an Ogre on the Ogre team or a goblin in the goblin team. no amount of advice though would completely overcome their deficencies and you will be losing a lot...

Incidentally if you end up at 200tv with 4/4/2/1 thats fine, because look at what the others teams do at that high level...

Stoping that while teams develop though is relatively simple.

daloonieshaman wrote:and that my friends is the TRUTHFULLY ONLY! reason that people want str 3 catchers

I don't think so chief. I've said they would need a 0-2 limit.

burgun824 wrote:

daloonieshaman wrote:and that my friends is the TRUTHFULLY ONLY! reason that people want str 3 catchers

I don't think so chief. I've said they would need a 0-2 limit.

It is that American education system, they have failed to teach reading comprehension.

daloonieshaman wrote:

burgun824 wrote:

daloonieshaman wrote:and that my friends is the TRUTHFULLY ONLY! reason that people want str 3 catchers

I don't think so chief. I've said they would need a 0-2 limit.

It is that American education system, they have failed to teach reading comprehension.

Now children play nice. Personally I like the str 3 route. Humans suck and need a boost.

Just to clarify - I wasn't upset by what he said. My response was unintentionally curt I wasn't clear in thoroughly explaining my statement. I think daloonie took it as though I didn't understand what he was beating at and I can see how he made that jump reading back over it. It happens. I chose not to follow through because it was unnecessary and I was very busy. And I would offer my apologies if he was put off by what I said. I doubt he gave it much thought as he seems to be a pretty reasonable person from what posts of his I've read (except for where he thinks human catchers should still be ST2 ).

If I had to type it over again my response should have read "Not using any linemen (4-4-2-1) may be the TRUTHFULLY ONLY reason that some people want ST3 catchers but I had suggested earlier that if catchers went to ST3 then they would almost definitely need to endure a drop to a 0-2 limit on that position."