Str 3 Human Catcher?

[Chris]

As previous threads weren't long enough I thought I would ask a more pointed question.

Is it possible to make a str 3 catcher work?

I don't like the drop to 7 speed most suggestions come with.

And yes always it is pointed out you are one skill from a block/dodge blitzer.

And that your team line up becomes 4 blitzers, 4 catchers, 2 throwers, 1 Ogre. Maybe some token linmen on the bench.

The alternative is the av 8 catcher. Which I think works, but it doesn't fit any of the models who all have less armour.

Also teams are sold with 4 catcher models so limiting it to 2 isn't on. Another alternative of 2 catchers 2 runners doesn't fit the model line up either.

The overall driving force behind this is humans competitiveness dropping off as tv goes up.

So rather than say the negatives what would be needed to make a str 3 catcher work?

I would want to have move 8 as he isn't a runner. And have catch. But dodge could be dropped. Now it is a longer slog to get block/dodge and with armour 7 less players will make it there.

So as the player isn't in isolation I would include some other team changes meant to help at high tv's.

So

0-4 Catchers 8/3/3/7 Catch, G/A, 90k (+1Str, -dodge, +20k)
0-4 Blitzers 7/3/3/8 Block, G/S, 80k (-10k)
0-2 Throwers 6/3/3/8 Pass, Sure Hands, G/P, 70k
0-16 Linemen 6/3/3/8 , G, 50k
0-1 Ogre 5/5/2/9 Ogre skills, 140k (Some suggestions have his cost coming down as well)
RR 60k (+10k to compensate for decrease in cost of blitzers)

Or of course just leave it and make a new team with new models to fit a new statline

[plasmoid]

Cut G-access from the catcher?
Then he won't go blodge.

[dode74]

Human 0-4 Blitzers 7/3/3/9 Block, G/S, 80k (-10k)
Orc 0-4 Blitzers 6/3/3/9 Block, G/S, 80k

Either AV9 or -10k for the humans, not both.

As for the catchers, I'm not a fan of ST3 with MA8 but have made my preferences known elsewhere.

[Smurf]

Another one!

Is the issue cost or ST2?

The other ST2 'monsters' is the Gutter Runner Blitzer ST2 + block + horns.

Also the ST2 Wood Elf catcher, which is just quick.

The MA 8 fiends are: Elf (including High) Catchers, +block = another Blitzer.

If people want to play like that so be it. But if ST2 human catchers are so annoying why not try and play games with out them:

4 Blitzers
1 Thrower
1 Ogre
5 Linemen

Maybe a few more Linemen on the bench too.

[Chris]

Human 0-4 Blitzers 7/3/3/9 Block, G/S, 80k (-10k)
Orc 0-4 Blitzers 6/3/3/9 Block, G/S, 80k

Either AV9 or -10k for the humans, not both.

As for the catchers, I'm not a fan of ST3 with MA8 but have made my preferences known elsewhere.

That was a mistype....

[Chris]

Another one!

Is the issue cost or ST2?

The other ST2 'monsters' is the Gutter Runner Blitzer ST2 + block + horns.

Also the ST2 Wood Elf catcher, which is just

The issue is the human team which is fine to start with runs out of steam. There ae many constraint about addressing this which leaves people to focus on the catcher as something that can be altered to effect the long term game.

[burgun824]

For the 100th time...

Yes.

And Wood Elf Catchers too.

I'm on the fence with Gutter Runners. I could see them being puny enough to be ST2 but my gut tells me ST3 if the other two are.

Basically, any non-stunty model should be at least ST3.

I'm not a fan of stripping dodge, but I would prefer it over eliminating A access.

[spubbbba]

Compared to the High Elf Catcher he’s a bit expensive seeing as how useful AG4 is.

I’m not a fan of the ST3 human catcher purely as I fear it will take away from the Blitzer. I prefer +AV for the same price or knocking 10K off the catcher and blitzer.

Humans are not a terrible team but could do with a small boost, I don’t think we should try and make all the tier 1 teams perfectly equal as it is virtually impossible and risks either “codex creep” or a dull homogenised list. So the 7/3/3/7, catch, dodge option isn’t for me either as it’s too similar to ghoul stats.

For the sane reason I’d be very against making gutters and wood elf catchers ST3. Whilst it might make fluff sense to have all non-stunty guys ST3+ I think from a balance point of view it is a bad idea. Otherwise agile teams will be too powerful against hybrids as they can run away and pick their fights plus will have equal strength to most of them.

[burgun824]

You will get no argument from me on the fact that those teams would need to be rebalanced in some other way because it would be a huge boost to them to make those players ST3. On that I agree with you.

However, it tweaks out my OCD to have some players that SHOULD be ST3 relegated to ST2 just because it somehow improves the game play. I will hold that there are many other options for balancing a team then messing with ST value. MA, ST, and AG should be set intuitively based on the character that figure represents. To a lesser extent AV is the same, but I believe there is some room for adjustment with AV. Primarily game play should be adjusted in cost, positional allotment, starting skills, and skill access. Leave the stats alone. I can't stand thinking that my full grown adult male human catcher can be out bench pressed by an Amazon linewoman. It's absurd.

[spubbbba]

I don’t think the background should get in the way of the ruleset being good, and it’s always difficult to try and compare creatures in a made up universe. Not only have GW changed the WHFB world on a number of occasions but the BB world is a weird hybrid of that world with some more modern elements.

One thing to look at is the stats of a common goblin in fantasy battle compared to an Empire human, they are actually very similar with the goblin having less weaponskill, initiative and leadership. But in Orc society goblins are pretty much slaves so will be poorly trained, badly fed and not very motivated, whilst the empire soldiers are normal humans who have been trained to fight and are better off than the average man. When you compare goblins to Brettonian peasants their stats are far closer.

If humans in a Blood Bowl team are well trained and fit then imagine what trained and fit goblins would be like.

So in that game goblins have the same strength as healthy humans but are slower and less able in combat, if anything as they have a greenskin’s hardy physiology I’d argue they should lose stunty and gain ST3 but be AG2.

[burgun824]

I don’t think the background should get in the way of the ruleset being good...

I agree with you on many things...this I don't get. I don't understand how making those three players ST3 would ruin the ruleset. Especially if you rebalance them in other ways.

If they should be ST3 then they SHOULD BE ST3. If that means taking away dodge, dropping them to 0-2, and giving them a price hike then that's just what needs to happen (I'm not saying it is, that's just a drastic example).

I'm not talking about completely overhauling the rules here. Just a little clean up work to correct a few positional stats that have been wrong for a long time.

[Chris]

Compared to the High Elf Catcher he’s a bit expensive seeing as how useful AG4 is.

I’m not a fan of the ST3 human catcher purely as I fear it will take away from the Blitzer. I prefer +AV for the same price or knocking 10K off the catcher and blitzer.

Humans are not a terrible team but could do with a small boost, I don’t think we should try and make all the tier 1 teams perfectly equal as it is virtually impossible and risks either “codex creep” or a dull homogenised list. So the 7/3/3/7, catch, dodge option isn’t for me either as it’s too similar to ghoul stats.

Yes, no catcher ghouls!

The whole thing is they are I think (and no doubt many have the stats) a good tier one team but they drop away to a bottom tier one team as leagues develop.

Frankly I think humans should be up there at the top with the other excellent tier one (or tier zero as plasmoid puts it) teams and develop alongside them as well. Not be merely a good then poor tier 1 team.

So its that later development that needs to be affected while the starting balance remains unaffected.

The solution of +1AV is neat and I think does a lot of the trick long term when combined with cheaper blitzers/more expensive re-rolls. It is though still a slight boost to starting effectiveness. More problematically it just doesn't fit the models from any of the GW human teams who are always showing a bit more flesh and cloth

I can't see any change that can be done to blitzers or throwers for this long term development. Yes the blitzers could be armour 9, but how much of a long term change is that compared to a starting change? It would fit the models at least more, but does it address the problem? Giving the linemen a starting skill is quite a radical change, not sure how that would play out. However would be a big departure from their position as the average blood bowl player. While giving them, say, strength access helps long term but just doesn't seem to fit. (Likewise agility.) Ogres are Ogres.

I think the effect of the str 3 catcher would be to take away from the blitzer, but if they don’t start with dodge that change will happen later.

So for starting teams the stars would still be blitzers. But for teams 3 skills down the line you would see guarding supporting blitzers as per now but more dynamic, probably block/dodge, catchers coming more to the fore.

Oh I see the point about high elf catchers

Given the above team suggestion the starting line up could be (with Ogre) with the no dodge 80k catcher:-

200k 4 Linemen
080k 1 Catcher
070k 1 Thrower
320k 4 Blitzer
140k Ogre
180k 3 RR
010k 1FF

Compared to common starting line ups now that actually has a catcher (with Ogre) of

200k 5 Lineman
070k 1 Catcher
070k 1 Thrower
360k 4 Blitzer
140k 1 Ogre
150k 3 Rerolls
010k 1 FF

When it’s an 80k position, does it work out as a more powerful team (no str2 target player?) – I don’t know the relative value of one player with dodge for the starting team, certainly I have relied on dodge in the past for lucky end game plays. Certainly though as you develop the team gets faster more reliably and has the str 3 g/a access.

[Chris]

A minor point for the dodge dropping is the team then starts with only the 'defining' skill for each of their positions. Blitzers block. Linemen nothing. Catchers catch. Throwers pass. Well and sure hands, but you know what I mean.

[Smurf]

But... the ST3 catcher (including other non stunty positions) has the problem of getting block and thus becoming another Blitzer. A sort of 8 Blitzer squad.

Skaven and Wood Elves don't mind their S2 catcher/runners so why should the humans be such an exceptional case?

[burgun824]

But... the ST3 catcher (including other non stunty positions) has the problem of getting block and thus becoming another Blitzer. A sort of 8 Blitzer squad.

So what? I mean with enough time I can give all my players block and then they'll all be blitzers I guess. All my lineman with block are just cheap blitzers with -1 MA. And oh yeah...lets not forget that other blitzer that can carry and throw the ball as soon as he's given block. I guess technically all of my catchers right now are blitzers because I gave them block, they're just not as strong for some reason. This just forces me to take dauntless on my next skill to make them a blitzer, which seems like a waste because they're human and SHOULD ALREADY BE ST3!

Ahem. Excuse me. Now I've gone and gotten myself overly excited.

I'm not trying to be a shite. I just don't understand why there are so many folks that are concerned about this. Lopping off a ST point from a player to keep them in better balance with game play seems like a bit of a short cut to me. Is it that much harder to price them out to what they should be? Or adjust the number of that positional that you're able to take if it's that big of a problem? I think it would be interesting to hear why they ever became ST2 in the first place. I'm sure there must have been a reason for it.

Skaven and Wood Elves don't mind their S2 catcher/runners so why should the humans be such an exceptional case?

They shouldn't. I do believe I've already stated that they should be given ST3 also.